So why do people hate level scaling?

To me level scaling done properly is a great design choice and if you hate it cos of Oblivion, I'd like to point out that Baldur's Gate 2 widely regarded as one greatest WRPG of all time did the exact same thing and ensure a proper difficulty level

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Level scaling is like CGI in movies, people hate it because they only really notice it when it's bad.

Because it's fudging the core concepts of an RPG.
It's kind of okay when things scale in such a way that you're always getting stronger but older content isn't completely 100% trivial, but when everything in the entire game just scales to exactly where you are it's not even an RPG at that point.

fuck...

this pretty much. even Morrowind had LS. it was just done nicely. instead of bandits showing up to mug you in full glass armor, animals became diseased, higher level ash monster spawned, and a few other things changed. mostly minor since the game was already made to have tons of high level enemies right from the start

fpbp

>So why do people hate level scaling?
For me it takes out a lot of the sense of progression. It's also usually done poorly and just a lazy way to not have to develop make a proper difficulty curve.

>thumbnail bait

I hope you die, OP.

well put

>You are way stronger than monsters. Destroy them effortlessy by hammering a single attack button
Boring for normal people, fun for nu-gamers

>You are roughly the same strength as monsters or a couple of levels higher. Fair fight, skill required, but doable.
Fun for normal people, boring for kids

bg2's answer to level scaling is to drop a lich in the dungeon

liches were the most tedious of enemies, so it was hardly a good mechanic

we all gonna die, but you sooner than me

Why are those sofas SOOO fucking hot?

Scaling is immersion breaking, contradictory to progression and ultimately pointless.

> lvl 1
> cockroach enemy
> 2 hits to kill with your "carpenter's hammer of major dick sucking"

> lvl 99
> cockroach
> 2 hits to kill with "masterwork Jesus's own carpenter's hammer of endless damage +15"

What's the point. Shitty game mechanic.

Why have levels then?.

Don't forget:

>The monsters are way stronger than you and you had no way of knowing before taking the quest. These human bandits and thugs are way stronger than the other human bandits and thugs you fought 5 minutes ago. Extremely difficult fight and even if you win you're probably going to get a reward that you can't even use until you've leveled up some more.
Fun for nobody.

>takes three hits to kill an enemy
>gain a level
>it now takes four hits to kill the same enemy

Level scaling can be good if used correctly. Morrowind had level scaling and most people did not even realize.

It's all a matter of progression.
Like any media there are elements in a game that "click" with certain aspects of the human psyche that we enjoy even if they're logically arbitrary.

Progression is the idea of designing a game around a character "growing stronger". In order to convey an increase in strength, you must draw a comparison to something weaker. So a character having to backtrack into a zone that was once difficult but has been made significantly easier by their leveling shows how much stronger they are and this "feels good" for most people.
Level scaling is just a lazy way of auto-balancing content so that the player always had an endless perpetual "challenge" but it ruins the ability to give meaning to any form of progression a player has earned from within the rpg element of the game.

It looks like a butt haha

Wizardry8's level scaling, I thought, was apt. The main thing that differentiated this game plot-wise from Wiz7 was Destiny Dominus storyline, a pursuit for knowledge - and that pursuit had an analogy in player slowly, steadily learning the unusual, convoluted mechanics of the via trial and error, and in order for that to be possible, game HAD to be tough at any point of its campaign, so that to make player go out of his way and invent something new, rather than fall back onto something he already knows, because the stuff he already knew, the stuff that has ONCE worked, was clearly insufficient here and now.

You learn from your mistakes. That's the whole point of the game. And without auto-leveling, conveying that point on mechanical level would be impossible.

Level scaling ruins a sense of character progression.

Level scaling "being done right" doesn't exist, because if it did, it wouldn't be level scaling then, otherwise the progression wouldn't be butchered somehow magically.

And when level scaling is around, character progression is always butchered.

level scaling done right is only having certain parts of the game have it generally the post-game

what am i looking at

THICC

You're alright user.

I'd just like to butt in and say people hate level scaling because it is rarely "done right" as you put it
It's the same as people hating open world because everything these days is just lazily making a giant world and populating it with collectibles and copypasted "content"

>Baldur's Gate 2 had goblins with enchanted weapons.
Bullshit. Instead of goblins, you encountered hobgoblins and stronger enemies. But once you surpassed one type of enemy, those enemies were forever puny weaklings to you.
Going up from wild dogs and bears to werewolfes and beholders is okay. It makes sense in the gameworld as well, since you visit different locations and attack stronger (humanoid) enemies.

I like the way this sort of thing works in romancing saga 2

Please elaborate, haven't played it

Baldurs Gate has hand designed encounters. Every single group of enemies you ran into in the game was manually placed by a person.
Even with level scaling, it was just 3 different encounters that spawned in based on your level, but each encounter was made by a person.

This wasn't the case in Oblivion.

>At level 1 you kill level 1 zombie with level 1 weapon in 5 hits
>At level 50 you kill the level 50 zombie with level 50 weapon in 5 hits
>What was the poin in grinding up the levels?

That what level scaling is.


>At level 1 you kill level 1 zombie with level 1 weapon in 5 hits
>At level 50 you kill the level 50 Zombified UberEarthshaker (that has corresspoing skin and new moves) with level 50 weapon in 7 hits. However you can also go back to the starting area where everything is still level 1-5 and whipe out hordes of level 1-5 zombies with one fireball if you feel like it.

That what progression is

In other words, Wiz8 is a game about Experience. The true one, not all them fancy bullshit numbers on character sheets. The one the player gets, the one that makes it possible for the player to complete the game, to overcome all the challenges the game throws at you. The skill, the mastery of the game, behaving differently to how you did when just starting the game with no actual clue as to what the actual fuck you were doing, because what you experienced in the game became part of your past changing subtly the very way you think.
Well played, Curries and Romero's current wife, well played.

If levels are going to scale, you should not have levels. Instead of making an action rpg, make an normal action game.

That image is so fucking hot.

>tfw no brapcouch

This. These days especially devs use it as a crutch since they can't into gud game design.

Why even have levels in the first place? What is the purpose of drawing your attention to leveling to a higher level if it means nothing?

>level up
>become weaker

That's because SaGa games have Battle Rank, it's not level scaling.
It's the same exact thing as BG like says, each enemy family eventually "evolves" into a stronger type as you grow stronger, though Battle Rank grows differently according to the games, but to make an example, if you're fighting a goblin at BR1 you'll end up fighting ogres at BR25 and at BR100 you'll probably fight something like Orc Warlords.
In some other entries like The Last Remnant BR acts as level scaling, though enemies do get stronger attacks as well as new attacks in some cases, so it's still not "proper" level scaling, especially since there are no levels in SaGa games.

The only game so far where there' simply some stat scaling is Scarlet Grace due to BR being swapped for a new Party Level mechanics, but even there it's meaningless since it's just a tool to force you into learning the system's nuances, if you need more time to kill a boar at high PL than you do at low PL then you're simply playing the game wrong.

Why did you post the dickless version

>Scaling is immersion breaking

Wouldn't enemies remaining at static levels be more immersion breaking?

this

>Boring for normal people, fun for nu-gamers
>Normies
>Video games
These 2 things should not go together.

Then what's point in leveling? RPGs (especially the modern dumbed down ones) become lame action games then.

And, of course, becoming Gods is the only ending in the game that makes any sense. You've won. You've mastered the game. End of the story.

Not bad first poster.

BRRRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASPPPPPPPPPP

This. This is why in most games level scaling is just bad. You literally become weaker as you level up.

At level 1 you're killing rats in 1-2 hits.
At max level you're still killing rats (just slightly bigger) in 10-20 hits.

It's fucking stupid. If you're going to have level scaling then you've got to phase out weaker enemies and replace them with stuff that at the very least looks stronger.
By buffing enemy stats to be disproportionately strong, you just make players feel weak. By replacing rats with wolves then bears and finally dragons, you're at least giving the player a sense they've got stronger due to fighting bigger, scarier looking enemies.

because what's the point in levelling up if everything levels up with you? it's especially bad in something like Binding of Isaac

>spend 10 minutes resetting for a good damage item
>get to a boss where it doesn't matter how much damage you do because his health scales with your damage

what in the world were they thinking

>Never seen this image before
That thumbnail bait has been around since like, 2009

I think, for an open world RPG at least, that a mix of level scaling and fixed enemy levels are actually necessary, just imagine something like Xenoblade 1 where there were regular enemies that were low level, and then there were the super dangerous level 80-140 enemies that could one shot you if you came anywhere within a 10 mile radius of them

>because what's the point in levelling up if everything levels up with you?
Specialization, new abilities, new combos, more buffs to stack, more creatures at once, greater number of low-level consumables.

Stop playing nu-vidya where only numbers change.

If youre talking about Hush or delirium, their health is actually set to a starting point and then increased from that point based on your damage stat. I think it works better than one-shotting blue baby because you got lucky.

Then again you could always bring the mega satan laser and it one shots delirium no matter what so what do i know

BASED

Examples of nu-vidya?

Sky
Rim
World

BG2 had 1 area that added a lich if you went there at higher level. That's about the extent of the level scaling in that game.

you're blind as shit if you thought it was anything but a sofa from the thumbnail

It's as bad as respawning. At least put a limit on the number of enemies in the game.

Are there any games with leveling that do this well? I heard in Fallout 4 if you get to Bunker Hill they stop leveling up or it's easier.

why didnt you reply with the dicks version?

sniff

It's not really an RPG if there's level scaling, or it's a fake RPG. You become more powerful, but so does everyone else, so you didn't really become more powerful. It's just inflation, with stats instead of money

Presumably later enemies keep up with the player through gaining new abilities or mechanics. This means earlier enemies encountered later in the game will be of no threat to the player due to the player acquiring new tools without those enemies having anything. In such a situation, what's the point of having the enemies scale? If earlier enemies are able to keep up with the player just as future enemies can (through whatever means), what's the point of having levels at all?

>Are there any games with leveling that do this well?
Morrowind.
That sadly concludes the list. TW3 isn't AWFUL but it's still not great.

>when the first post is unironically the best post

>glasses fetish
HNNNNG

Level scaling completely removes the sense of progression, which is the entire point of levels. What bother leveling up when it's actually a better decision for you to remain low level? There is less work involved on your part, and the game remains just as challenging. It also completely removes sense of growth. It's amazing to level up and then find out that the boss near the beginning of the game that gave you so much trouble and killed you three times is now a normal enemy that you can take out without even breaking out the hi-potions. With level scaling, the only way this makes sense is if you're fighting a neutered version of the boss.

And no, Baldur's Gate 2 did not do level scaling.

This is easily the most retarded answer for this problem I have heard so far. Anyone who agrees with this post should be dragged out into the street and shot. You're literally not mentally qualified to even join in the discussion.

>lvl 1
>Attack Bandit Camp
>Get completely rekt
>swear to get revenge
>100 hours later
>lvl 84
>Top Tier Weapons and armor
>ITS TIME
>Go back to bandit camp
>Bandits are now lvl 80 with top tier gear
>Still beat them but didn't totally destroy them like I wanted to
>Revenge feels hollow

T-thanks level scaling

No? Why the fuck would the entire world adapt to you?

This applies to all mechanics though.

BBBBBRAAAAAAA-

Yes. First post was trash post as usual.

Because there's no sense of progress in how your character has evolved from a weakling to a bad motherfucker.
Also, it's terrible for level design, because everything is scaled, there's no reason to stick around one area to level up some and get good gear, why not just jump to the end of the game at level 1?

Level scaling is nothing compared to level locking. That is the worst most retarded shit in games. If I fucking got the item then I should be able to use it.
>Hurr Durr you have to be level 30 to wear these moccasins
>Durr Durp you need 650 strength to wear this hat
Are you shitting me? Absolutely rapes any immersion, and so does level scaling. Internally Consistent Universe >>> Lazy Game Design

No that level 1 road bandit hasn't been training like Son Goku in the waterfall ever since you left to murder a God or whatever.

>Smash a wolf in your small village's forest with 5 hits
>Smash the giant demon corrupted cerberus in the demon kings lair with 5 hits
Might aswell remove levels.

It's less interesting when I'm not able to visit high level areas early. Also it makes levelling pointless. Just don't bother having a level system at that point.

>Anyone who agrees with this post should be dragged out into the street and shot
You need to chill out

>>Durr Durp you need 650 strength to wear this hat
because toddlers wielding battle axes makes sense

Put me in the screencap

This. Level locking is a retarded carry over from MMO design. In MMOs, it makes sense, because you don't want someone giving their buddy who just got into the game at level 1 all the equipment suitable for level 70 and then just storming everything. This shit DOESN'T make sense in a single player game because the natural level limiter is just "Find the fucking item". If you don't want me to have this level 30 hat, don't put a fucking level 30 hat in my path.

I'm looking really hard at you, FF12.

It's boring and uncreative. It's also often used to artificially lengthen play time and is probably the core reason there are so many retarded "but muh +100 hours" faggots that keep enabling it.

Level scaling has no place in your average RPGs. There's no point.
In RPGs with a fuckton of stats, weapons, formations, bars, whatever... it makes sense since your source of power is not primarily your current level.

Also, powerlevel players really enjoy grind for hours just to one shot the next boss.

What if I want the monsters to knock my dick off in one or a few hits?

Reverse search isn't giving it to me, pls gib link.

>want to play shivering isles.
>don't want to bother with hours of tedious oblivion content
>can just jump straight into it

Level scaling is great

Are you retarded? You only have to be level 2.

yeah that's the point, dumbass

If there are tons of variables involved in a RPG then not adding level scaling would actually be more fun. A good strategy and usage of mechanics would make you be able to fight opponents who are a higher level than you (they have higher stats, more movements), and on the other side, you can still lose to low-level mooks since your higher defense and HP alone won't save you if you turn your brain off.

kek I misread sorry man I'm a little drunk.

well, i have my doubts about that.
it may be ok for ARPGs with limited role-playing mechanics (games aimed for wider audience)
but to classic CRPGs it simply doesnt apply. open-worlds/levels should be thoughtfully designed

go back to facebook

thanks for killing my boner, user

>Skyrim
>Level up a skill
>1 perk point available, go to spend it
>% damage increase

WHATS THE FUCKING POINT. WHY DON'T YOU JUST CUT THE MIDDLEMAN AND HAVE ME GET THIS SHIT ANYWAYS WHEN MY SKILL INCREASES, LEAVING THE ACTUAL PERKS TO BE MEANINGFUL

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

And that is what I do in most RPGs. I have never beat an RPG at the supposed proper endgame levels because I learn how to use the mechanics the game gives me, even if they are not that depth. I hate the concept of powerlevel.

It should break your immersion how your character is able to kill a daedric prince at level 1 due to level scaling, but you probably don't care about gameplay and story integration as long as it lets you explore pretty places and do cool stuff

>bottom far right
>top far left
>bottom second to the right from far left
>bottom far left
only ones worth putting your dick ESPECIALLY FAR RIGHT BOTTOM HOLY FUUUUCK

I only found this which looks like it was downloaded from and reuploaded to 9gag 15 times
i.imgur.com/CpLpG4o.jpg

>They have dicks now
fuck you and fuck your gay shit fucking bitch