Twilight Princess sacrificed a free roaming overworld for more focus on large dungeons. Skyward Sword did the same thing.
Breath of the Wild sacrificed dungeons for non linear progression and a free roaming overworld.
Which do you like better? And do you think the next Zelda game can do both?
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I like a bigger overworld. The dungeons are always easy. Gimme something that just by nature of its visuals makes me wanna explore and I'd rather take that. The mystery inherent to it is the most appealing thing to me.
The thing is that a you can have Dungeons in open worlds. Who had the idea of putting those shitty divine beast instead of designing dungeons should be fired.
>Which do you like better?
BotW
>And do you think the next Zelda game can do both?
Zelda1 did so why not. As long as the overworld is not fuckhuge that has to be filled with shrines again.
I prefer the large overworld, but also prefer a variety of utility items and diverse puzzles, over the small number of items in BotW.
Give me a huge overworld with lots to explore and many items spread around the world, each opening up new places to venture into. Sort of an "open world Metroidvania" if you will.
Dungeons should just be stumbled upon like anything else. Find a random cave on the overworld and go in it. Then it turns out to be a huge dungeon full of traps and monsters. This is basically how Zelda 1 did it, though the dungeon entrances were a little too obvious.
This. Cut the fucking world in half and use all that dev time ro cradt a dozen or ao dungeons. The cool thing is, they can still keep the shrines AND dungeons because no time was wasted making empty space save for a bunch of korok seeds.
I wish BoTW had better dungeons. Shrines get fucking annoying and the fact you can just skip every dungeon to go fight ganon, even though realistic, was really a bummer as temples is probably my favorite part of zelda games. Plus, they were all really easy.
They could have had a world the size of BotW and still had dungeons. All that time went into creating the shrines. Remove the 120 shrines and replace them with 4-5 large size dungeons. And they could have used many of the same puzzles we got in the shrines in a dungeon.
The next game has no excuse since they're probably just going to recycle the engine of BotW, which will cut development time down by 75%. The rest of that time will be put into making new textures for new NPCs/areas, which some could be dungeons.
TP >>>>>>>>> SS > BotW
I've always preferred focused level design to open exploration, and while Zelda dungeons are rarely headscratchers TP's are at least thematic rollercoasters that I have a lot of fun running through without exception, with just enough overworld stuff for me to do something when I don't want to do a dungeon but not so much as to be bogged down in tedium. It is easily my favorite dungeon/overworld execution in the series to date. SS had some good dungeons but some middling ones too and even I think its overworld game is a bit lacking. BotW's focus was clearly in the overworld and I respect that, I think it's even good at it, but I think too much was sacrificed in the dungeon area for my tastes, not to mention other issues like healing mechanics being a massive step back from how SS/Hero Mode handled them and probably my least favorite combat of any 3D Zelda. Speaking of which, I also loved TP's hidden skills and wish we'd get a 3D Zelda that actually made proper use of a wider repertoire of sword skills beyond OoT's base moveset. TP's by far the closest to accomplishing that IMO. Lastly, I certainly hope they can approach dungeons with a bit more appeal in the BotW formula. There's some good concepts in play like exploring Hyrule Castle and the IDEA of Divine Beasts isn't a bad one but for my tastes it all needs to be pushed a little further to be interesting. Don't change the overworld exploration though, BotW pretty much nailed that.
Random Zelda related question: How does the Twilight Princess Wolf Link Amiibo work with the Switch version of BotW? I know on the Wii U if you had a TP save it would change the number of hearts that the Wolf companion summoned with...
>Remove the 120 shrines and replace them with 4-5 large size dungeons.
Then there would be nothing fun to find in the world. Shrines are necessary to make BotW work as a whole.
I'd much rather stumble across areas like Thyphlo Ruins, Eventide Island, and the giant mazes just to stumble upon them and have all the dungeon-y bits be represented by a massive Hyrule Castle-esque structure that houses that kind of design within their walls. Basically, keep doing what the reward shrines did and put all the combat/puzzle shrines in a handful of larger scale structures, perhaps one per subregion.
Add in 30-60 random overworld upgrades like Hearts and Stamina upgrades and such, and you've got a reason to explore.
Or, since they've got a fantastic engine to work with, they could spend time making a fleshed out game that puts BotW to shame in all counts.
Should be the same.
But there's no Twilight Princess on the Switch?
You know what could be done? Bring back the MM Great Fairy concept and use fragments of a Great Fairy as replacements for spirit orbs. There could be like 20 fairies to find and you get minor rewards for finding 5/10/15 and a major reward like a top shelf weapon or a new spell when you find all 20. Repeat for as many Great Fairies as needed.
There was already tons of shit to find on the overworld without counting shrines. Going into shrines was a very small part of the game. Probably like 10% of all the content in the world. Just think of all the stuff you could do in each of the towns. Even when you know what to do, places like Gerudo Town and Kakariko village take hours.
But the reward for most of what you did was either temporary resources (weapons, rupees, food, etc) or a shrine.
Why not go a unique route within the series and basically make a world that is, in and of itself, a massive dungeon? Not literally perhaps, but segment it in zones and have discoveries give you new abilities, tools and/or methods of travel without inherently locking them into a dungeon like older games, while promoting exploration and revisiting for more goodies? This is just a spitball kinda thought mind you.
Skyward Sword kind of tried that, but in reverse. It tried to blur the line between field and dungeon by making fields an extension of the dungeons, hence why its conventional overworld game basically doesn't exist outside of goddess cubes and gratitude crystals.
Problem with that is that Skyward Sword doesn't really promote much in the way of going off the beaten path unless the game tells you to. Which it will inevitably just to pad the game out further.
That's basically how it is in past Zelda games too. Your reward was just rupees or a heart piece, with the occasional item like pegasus boots or hookshot.
I definitely won't argue that Zelda needs to improve its rewards. But just saying, shrines weren't needed. The game would have still been 150+ hours long if they just had all the content already in the game, but removed shrines. And if they replaced the shrines with a few decent sized dungeons, all the better.
I've been arguing since BotW came out that all "dungeons" should just be on the overworld. BotW kind of tried this with the three giant maze puzzles on the overworld, the Lost Woods an that one darkness puzzle. But they need to take this idea way farther and with better design.
It doesn't access your Twilight Princess save file, when you complete the cave it saves the amount of hearts you have left to the amiibo itself.
This. BoTW didn't really feel like a Zelda game to me because they got rid of dungeons and dungeon items.
TP is my favourite.
OOT was my first.
Still prefer story, gameplay and bosses of TP.
Played TP on release day and then again this time last year on the Wii U port. Still holds up.
Fight me.
Can confirm. Playing BOTW with a 20 heart wolf link.
He still dies easy as fuck to Lynells.
I guess If I had to choose I'd choose BotW, but I'd rather have it like earlier Zelda, there was large open world but it was mostly just a maze to solve on your way to the next dungeon and not the focus.
Not going to fight you. Just going to say I don't share your view. But that's probably because I started the series with Zelda 1. I've known others who started the series with the 3D games and think Zelda should be more like those. I feel like Zelda should be more like Zelda 1-4.
If they just made both 2D and 3D Zelda games, everything would be fine. But unlike Mario and Metroid, Nintendo turned Zelda into a 3D only series.
I haven't played botw but generally open worlds that feel empty or repetitive are awful.
>but generally open worlds that feel empty or repetitive are awful.
Yes the do. I would argue BotW is one of the few games that did it right. Though you may not think the same if you play it. All I can say is BotW is not completely bland and open like Skyrim.
Breath of the Wild's this weird love it or hate it wiht its open world. It actually gives aimless or inquisitive exploration meaning, but in that very Nintendo style of a handful of trinkets you use for major purchases/upgrades over and over. But unlike most open-world games it also lets you just cut right to the end most of the time if you're really clever, sometimes making the entire point of the exploration moot to begin with (ala the mazes, where you just climb to the top and figure out where to drop in). And then it's repeated ad nausea, hoping to entirely use environmental variance to its advantage to keep you interested.
It's such a fucking weirdly simplistic setup that worked for a lot of people.
i preferd the dungeons.
but i honestly want BOTH
BotW had a great overworld, but it was totally lacking any kind of interior design. Abandoned castles, dark caves, mines, any of these would make the world so much more fascinating to explore.
>Skyward Sword
>focus on large dungeons
Did we play the same fucking game? Me and everyone I knew that played Skyward Sword got to the boss of Skyview Temple and said "That's it?"
It had a few locations.
The ruins with all the destroyed guardians come to mind as a really fantastic "oh shit" moment.
And hyrule castle obviously along with the arena area.
But there were far too few of them for sure.
As with most other anons I really just wished they had dungeons it was the only thing holding botw back.
I will.
The wolf is pointless and you can do more with just one of the mask in MM, The story is edgy and really fail to be dark comparing it with MM, The graphics have aged likw shit compared to WW.
>everyone I knew
Imaginary friends don't count
MM isn't dark, it's got the happiest ending in the series
>Breath of the Wild sacrificed dungeons
Why does everyone spread this fucking meme
Explain how it didn't please.
because there isnt a single dungeon.
That's exactly why I liked it though. It rewarded you as the player for finding alternate ways to do things. Sometimes the alternate way would actually take way longer. But you felt more accomplished for doing it than simply going the obvious path. Then you realize afterwards, the game designers actually designed that alternate option.
The truth few people realize is that "free roaming" games actually have a lot of purposeful design. The trick is hiding that from the player. The best "open world" games actually have a lot of linear event chains and carefully designed areas that lead the player to certain goals. They just trick the player into thinking they stumbled upon it themselves.
The ending doesn't matter.
What makes MM dark is
-The atmosphere
-The fact that even if Link stops the moon, someone will still get fucked. The player can't help everybody and either that little girl will be eating by her zombie dad or the other girl will be kidnapped.
Fuck off, you don't even like Zelda. BotW was well short of the series best, but it beats the pants off of TP.
>other issues like healing mechanics being a massive step back from how SS/Hero Mode handled them
This is the single worst aspect of BotW. The game was so close to perfecting this and giving you a reason to care about potions again, which could have been achieved by copying SS's approach to this, but it completely shits the bed instead.
Because shrines and the divine beasts aren't dungeons. They're short puzzle rooms.
>What makes MM dark is
>-The atmosphere
By that logic, Zelda 1, 2, Ocarina of Time and TP are dark. Hell, you can even argue LttP and Link's Awakening is dark given the content of the story.
But you're confusing atmosphere with visual tone.
>Hasn't played MM
Link isn't jesus in that one and by the end of story someone is gonna end up losing something.
It's the only Zelda that treats with themes like Death or loneliness
It also has the best villain in the series.
This is how the Korok seeds should have worked. Finding a bunch of them in a given area should be significant. The problem is that, since there's so many of them hidden in copy-pasted ways and they're all interchangeable it mostly doens't matter whether you find or miss any single one of them, since there are always tons more that could substitute for it anyway.
You mean Skull Kid?
I guess he doesn't have too much competition aside from maybe WW Ganon
I guess I kind of look at 3D and 2D Zelda titles almost like a different series. I think all the 2D Zelda's are fun, they play out very differently.
I personally would suck someone's dick for a new game with WW artstyle.
Also
>People here doubting that MM hass the best story and is darkest game in Zelda.
I could explain why everybody here is wrong but based Matt already did it.
youtube.com
>I personally would suck someone's dick for a new game with WW artstyle.
End yourself now, we had more than enougth of those
Not him but that sequel of WW....and?
>End yourself now, we had more than enougth of those
WW...and WW HD?
Four Swords. Four Swords Adventures. The Minish Cap. Phantom Hourglass. Spirit Tracks. Tri-Force Heroes.
As controversial as Wind Waker itself was, there is no shortage of games that kept the art style.
Divine beasts felt like something you would go to unlock the main dungeon, kinda like the ice cave in OOT. I don't see why there had to be a sacrifice.
take couple > off and your post is excellent
Explain how pic related or the pixel ones looks like WW.
By same artstyle i don't meant just the cover art, the best thing of WW is how nice it looks and how link actaully is expressive and has a personalitty there.
It’s obvious they blew most their budget/time on the engine and open world. It’s why divine beasts and shrines feel so mass produced and short.
If possible, I want the next BotW with larger overworld with more varieties (not in the sense of items and enemies, but more types of geographical terrain), slippery coefficient for surfaces so that to climb some types of surface you must have great strength or specialised climbing gear, and finally, just only four dungeons but complex like Hyrule Castle in BotW and one final dungeon as a fucking huge maze.
>It’s obvious they blew most their budget/time on the engine and open world.
Funny because the game was delayed 2 years to improve it.
That's actually good, he explained in a really good way why MM atmosphere isn't the same as OoT like this user said.
continued from Also make a hard mode so that your supply inventory is limited so each time you venture into dungeon, you must plan beforehand. A more hard mode is that you cannot teleport when inside the dungeon. The casual mode is similar to BotW so that everyone can play the game at his own pace.
How about an Ocarina of Time on a massive scale, where you can do some dungeons in any order, but others that you have to do at a certain points for major story progression? Items should come back. Oh and what about other interesting areas like the Ice Cavern, or optional dungeons like the Gerudo Training Grounds? And the OoT artstyle. I never really warmed up to the other artstyles. Maybe Twilight Princess, but that doesn't age quite as well. I want to see more puzzles involving sunlight.
I’m really hoping they go with something like this for the next game. Having dungeons open up in sets of 3 gives players freedom AND a sense of progression.
So it is 3D version of ALBW?
A little bit like that, but I found the item purchasing took something out of the game. Made it feel more generic. Something about finding the Kokiri Sword for the first time really stuck with me, and the lack of items in Breath of the Wild was a disappointment. Hmm... That makes me think about a co-op mode where one player plays as Link with items, and the other as Zelda using the Sheikah slate to help.
Skyward sword had no content. You were linearly railroaded through it on repeat and that made both problems obvious.
You can have both a more open world and dungeons. I would prefer dungeons because they are at least interesting in theory when handled by people who aren't retarded so there is something to look forward to in the overworld. BotW only had this very sparingly since barely anything shrine related was interesting by association.
>best villain in the series
>possessed skull kid steals your horse, curses you and tries to make the moon crash into the planet
Yeah wow greatest villain of the series. You sure you're not just saying that because you're sick of Ganon?
>Skyward sword had no content. You were linearly railroaded through it on repeat and that made both problems obvious.
That's still content. It's just not the type of content you like. Also, Twilight Princess did exactly the same thing.
You know what I wouldn't mind? Blending BotW, WW and OoT together to explore multiple massive lands, continents even, spread apart by seas and each land has its own OoT-esque subset of story dungeons. I mean, it'd be a bit like how Zelda II is but as a fully realized concept instead of scaled to fit the system's limitations. I feel like that would approach the endgame for this series, like it'd be amazing but where would you even go from having a near literal planet to explore BotW-style?
He's saying that because he's a Majora's Mask fanboy and has to make every aspect of the game somehow the best Zelda has ever achieved. Because he played Majora's Mask when he was 12 and it changed his life.
I felt much more sucked in by BotW than traditional 3D Zeldas.
Not that user but while that's true SS was an "evolution" of TP's more story-oriented direction. TP railroaded but a.) nowhere near as aggressively as SS and b.) it wasn't really any more or less railroading than WW's main quest, that just had an overworld that more easily facilitated telling the main quest to fuck off, and EVEN THEN only really in the back half of the game. On top of that, even TP had a more fleshed out overworld than SS. Hell, TP had a good ass fishing hole, that's worth SS's overworld by itself and arguably then some.
Seems to go both ways. If you weren't crazy about 3D Zelda before, BotW is arguably the first actually interesting one, maybe since OoT if you played it in its heyday but even that's a crapshoot. Meanwhile, people who loved OoT enough to even adore with the subsequent OoT clones seem to have more trouble accepting BotW for what it is. Personally, I'm in the latter camp but I still have optimism for the potential of BotW's direction.
I like 3D Zelda for its atmosphere but later dungeons always feel like a chore to me so I always quit near the end. BotW is the first 3D Zelda I think I will finish.
I love everything about BotW but I still end up replaying ooT, MM and TP. I'm not sure what's keeping me back from replaying BotW
TP was just as much of a railroad as Skyward Sword. You were guided to an area, watch a cutscene, then go on a fetch quest, then see another cutscene, then do the quest/dungeon, then return to the first NPC and get another cutscene. This is literally every main story event in TP. With a few dozen optional NPC fetch quests in between. And this exact formula was repeated with Skyward Sword.
I don't see how you can think Twilight Princess was less railroaded than Skyward Sword. They're on the same level. Heck, you can even argue TP is more railroaded as you are given the ability to skip the hub world with warps, whule SS makes you use the flying mechanic.
>Midna amiibo
>doesn't actually do anything Midna related in botw
feels bad man
Yeah, I love 3D Zelda dungeons and BotW took me almost a year to finish. Bought it day one and finally got around to beating Ganon on Valentine's Day, I just didn't have the will to push through it sooner than that. I eventually got there, though.
>revisit the same areas with only desert receiving more than minor twists that weren't annoying because it had an interesting gimmick
>fight the same bosses over and over
>large amounts of padding between dungeons that was also padded
>overworld is massively underdeveloped
>flight is massively underdeveloped even compared to wolf form
>fight very few types of enemy throughout
SS does every wrong thing that TP did worse. The "little content" point stands.
I think it's good we can have both
Zelda isn't one for innovation, so watching them try something somewhat different and succeed is a win in my books.
That's actually better than kidnapping Zelda and wait in a castle until Link comes to beat your ass.
WW's Ganon is great tho.
In terms of main quest SS, TP and WW are all about equally railroaded, you just lose options to shatter that illusion as the games go on. WW distracts you with a sea to splash around in, TP has a bigger OoT-like overworld but forgot to actually add MORE side content than OoT, and SS has...Skyloft. I'd say the sky itself but the game does next to nothing with it so it's like WW's sea but boring as watching paint dry.
Zelda 1 was my first Zelda and to this day, I like Zelda 1 and Ocarina tied for the best. They both were the best at two very different styles of Zelda.
But I couldn't get into most of the games that followed. For me, its not about being 2D or 3D. It's just that Zelda after Ocarina of Time became more about story cutscenes, limiting exploration to zones and NPCs talking forever. This is the same for the games trying to be more like classic Zelda on the GBC, GBA and DS.
Link Between Worlds was the first game in 13 or so years that I played where I finally felt like I could freely explore and play how I wanted. And BotW did it even more, though I still don't like the cutscenes. But my point is, for me, Zelda is about freedom. And the series really has been the total opposite of that from Majora's Mask up until LBW.
Yes, that's what I was arguing. Basically all the post Ocarina games are the same linear zones and railroad progression. So TP isn't less than SS.
That's the most efficient plan in the series, Since the time will reset like 10 times at least when you're playing MM it basically means that Link failed to save the world 10 times.
I played all the Zelda games 2 years ago btw, i was never interested in it.
idk but twilight princess was epic tho... i think that breath of the wild was good but overhyped
Good point
Kinda disliked it at first but I grew to like BotW to the point where it's my favourite Zelda. Started series with Link's Awakening, I only played LA, OoT, MM, Oracles, Minish Cap, Lttp GBA, WW, TP, PH, SS, AlbW and BotW in that order.
Dropped PH, SS and AlbW because I didn't like them at all.
I do feel the series has progressed over time and I don't think I could go back to a pre-BotW system for the 3D games, although the dungeons should be longer and more frequent.
I was never bored in BotW however and I beat Ganon yesterday finally after 265 hours of playtime, and I still need to find 10 shrines and do the champion's ballad.
Well yes, in terms of main quest that's like saying water is wet. The series had hardly any openness in that regard from MM to SS and everything inbetween. ALBW was the first Zelda since OoT to take an honest look back at how the early games worked. But I'll still maintain that the 3D games in this timeframe were slowly but steadily getting more handholdy, and while it was getting pretty bad with TP I think we can all agree that SS was the straw that broke the camel's back, so much so that it actually got the Zelda team to change their tune. TP's overworld at least still felt like an overworld and not even Midna held your hand as much as Fi did. I'm having a hard time believing that TP is WORSE about it than SS, I think it took TP and streamlined it even further.
I'd rather see 8 unique BotW Plateaus with a set goal (read dungeon, temple, "quest") on it.
Once you beat one plateau, you can move to the next one. Maybe they rise from the
... rise from the ground like pic related,
I mean.
That's a pretty fucking cool concept.
I envision something like literally rebuilding Hyrule from the ashes with these plateaus, but you have to purify them for gameplay reasons so in the end these plateaus make one big new Hyrule.
>TP's overworld at least still felt like an overworld and not even Midna held your hand as much as Fi did.
But it didn't. The "overworld" was literally just two zones. Two rather small squares where the only point was to ride your horse and go to another zone. And when it came to your horse, it was entirely useless in TP. Epona is in the game literally for one horse combat event. Aside from that, it takes like 2 minutes to ride from one end of the "overworld" to another. Sometimes it's even faster just to walk, so you can avoid the waves of spawning Moblins who rush your horse.
And of course, once you get to a new zone, you just warp there and avoid the hub entirely.
Hi, me
Both
Fuck the dungeons sucked in botw
I want to explore that huge land west of Hebra/Gerudo Desert more than anything. They can model it off the world in Zelda 2. Then they can also keep the whole world from BotW as well. Maybe the first task in the sequel is to go around and kill all the enemies in the world, which wouldn't respawn now that Ganon's power can't revive them. Then you as Link go explore the Plateau to the west and do the same thing.
And there would be dungeons in the new land.
Basically sounds like the concept of 3D Dot Game Heroes. But I assume it would be less tedious and have better controls.
Why did people become stupid?
>MM and WW
Random asshole makes camera, normal tech for them.
>BotW 10.000 years later
Yes we can make these old technological guardians work but this device makes images without needing a painter, how advanced!