Scott Shelby is the Origami Killer

>Scott Shelby is the Origami Killer
>you play as Scott Shelby multiple times during the game
>you can see a character's thoughts when you play as them
So why would his thoughts not just be "Oh fuck, I did it, I'm guilty" when people talk about the Origami Killer?

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Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unreliable_narrator
giantbomb.com/profile/dreamkin/blog/heavy-rain-story-review/56951/
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Because David Cage is a hack.

Because David Cage is a crook

Why anything about Heavy Rain, to be honest... a fucking clusterfuck of shitty, unintuitive and frustrating "gameplay" stifled by a midly interesting story/setting/atmosphere and generally annoying and memeworthy characters/moments.

Not just that, there are times when he thinks about the Origami Killer as if he was a different person.

Because a serial killer is not all there mentally. The dude is literally investigating himself. Because you cant hear all their thoughts and Cage is obviously selective to best forward the narrative and keep the surprise.
Why didnt the kid tell Bruce Willis he was dead right away?
How did they not clue in Kevin Spacey was Kaiser sosay? Fuck off.

Ghgbh

>autism: the post

To keep the player in suspense you silly sausage

CRACKA

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He literally thinks to himself, "I wonder if Manfred is ok?" after he killed Manfred himself in the clock store. The game flat out lies to you.

I liked heavy rain when I thought it was about some dumb broad investigating a crazy taxidermist.

Then the game comes out and it's three fuck goofs doing the most inane shit that doesn't even help find the stupid killer until he just suddenly decides to reveal himself because surprise you are the killer.

HAHAHA HE DOES DOESNT HE? I mean fuck they could of changed his thoughts so that while it doesn't outright give it away they could of done some foreshadowing but nope he acts all oblivious even in his memories.

He didnt mean to hit Manfred that hard, which is why he wonders if he is okay when he started to take too long.

>not all there mentally. literally investigating himself
He was collecting evidence so he could burn it and run you dumbass. He wasn't some split personality that didn't know his other half killed people or something

Best thing about this game is how there are like 6 serial killers operating simultaneously in this one town. They should have just kept going and made it as ridiculous as Fahrenheit.

He isn't investigating the Origami Killer, he is investigating a copycat. The case he works isn't the one he did.

That fucking giga nigger was great

"Because he's crazy" is a shitty desperate attempt at an explanation, unless you can demonstrate that crazy people never think about themselves.
>Cage had to do it because otherwise the plot twist wouldn't have worked
Plot twists need a certain degree of fairness to work. The character that is meant to be the culprit flat out lying to himself in the solitude of his own mind just to keep the twist from being revealed is bad writing.
It's like a locked room mystery where the answer is "somebody secretly developed a teleporter". Yes it's a pretty unexpected plot twist, but it really feels like a cop out.

Yeah, that was unforgivable. Was it that hard to think up different dialogue that wasn't outright lying to you? Surely there was a way to write stuff so it didn't imply Shelby was the killer, but could also leave enough wiggle room for the viewer to not realize it.

>made it as ridiculous as Fahrenheit.

The part where he kills the clock guy off screen was pretty fucking ridiculous. I can't believe they tried to pass that off as a real story twist

Remember how Ethan was literally supposed to have a psychic link with Shelby and that his blackouts just randomly stop midway through the game?

Never said that it's fair or good in any measure, if anything it's the laziest way possible to keep the player in suspense and doing a 180 out of nowhere

>comparing video games to film
vidya is not and WILL NEVER be art

>He isn't investigating the Origami Killer
Yes he is. He's pretending to investigate to destroy false leads. The copycat is incidental.

>first gameplay footage ever shown of Heavy Rain
>producer talks about how in this scene you play at Scott Shelby, a PI hired by the families of the victims to track down the killer
>Scott Shelby is at a convenience store trying to get information from a victim's father
>he doesn't know him and doesn't want to cooperate
>immediately think how this makes no sense
>maybe he's just pretending to be a PI hired by the victim's families
>maybe he is the killer or at least working for him?
>nahh, that's too dumb even for Quantic Dream
>years later
>game comes out
mfw

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It's a stupid fucking game. If only Cage could have some NO-men in his staff we could possibly get some property good games out of his madness.

> to destroy false leads
I meant, to destroy residual evidence and potential leads.

Right but if he is investigating himself. Why not think about it, you know like an investigator? Again see the second sentence. The game never implies you are hearing every thought or memory to ever cross their minds. Its insanely selective as to push the narrative. Not just from Shelby and thats perfectly fine and normal. The point isnt to give you perfect information about what everything. Also this
He isnt the only killer.
I never said he never thought about it. I said every thought voiced in the game is a reasonable thought for him to have given he is a crazy dude investigating, his own crimes or otherwise he could have these thoughts. If you think about how many thoughts everyone has in like 1 minute. You will realize the game shows like a fraction of a percent. And yes you can sometimes bend reality on your own thoughts, even if temporarily, especially if crazy.
All videogames, movies, books, tv shows, Anime, Manga, paintings, sculptures or other outlets of creative expression are by definition art. Whether it is good or not is a whole nother question. Assigning prestige to the word art is stupid.

>Heavy Rain hides it's plot twist by giving you the ability to read playable characters' thoughts and giving you deliberately misdirecting ones and everybody calls David Cage a hack
>But in Virtue's Last Rewards nobody straight up just calls the protagonist what he really fucking is and just dodge the issue with unlikely dialogue and Sup Forums calls it foreshadowing and a brilliant twist

Really gets the nogging jogging.

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I guess so is Agatha Christie, since she pioneered the whole "narrator lies to the reader in a murder mystery" trope.

The chars keep calling Sigma an old man, what are you talking about? Phi calls him old twice during their first dialogue.
The lack of mirrors is the issue.

Because no one is a native English speaker on the whole game

>I never said he never thought about it.[...]
You're just saying that the way he thinks is reasonable because he's crazy, but you don't know how crazy people think. You're just using the fact that he's crazy to justify the fact that he HAPPENS to think exactly like somebody who is innocent and looking at the situation as if he wasn't the killer.
Yes, it's possible that that's the case. The point is that even if it was intentional it's an incredibly convenient thing to do as a writer, to the point where you're basically cheating. Even if he had some sort of dissociative personality disorder it doesn't have any bearing on the plot, because by the end of the game there's no trace of it.

Any good Hackatha books?

Ten Little Niggers

It's almost as if the director only reveals selected thoughts to the player so as to not spoil the story.

Shocking, I know.

>but you don't know how crazy people think.
There are many different types of crazy. Many crazy people do think like this.
>to justify the fact that he HAPPENS to think exactly like somebody who is innocent and looking at the situation as if he wasn't the killer.
Its a logical conclusion to draw. But again, the mystery is from what is omitted. You are missing 99% of his thoughts. but with a sample of less than 1% you falsely filled in the blanks that the other 99% were the same. Cage intended for you do to this of course, but this is one of the rare times ever he was actually genius. That is quite literally the point.
>Yes, it's possible that that's the case.
So what is the problem?
>The point is that even if it was intentional it's an incredibly convenient thing to do as a writer
What? a mystery writer uses ommitted information as to create a mystery? how dare he!
>to the point where you're basically cheating
yeah he is cheating. How incredibly convenient that there was a killer and then some kid went missing and then exciting things happend. It should have just been some dude shitposting online for 18 hours and playing with his kid. I hate how the conveniently omitted large parts of the characters sleeping and making bowel movements as well!
>it doesn't have any bearing on the plot
Kinda does because he kills kids and thats kinda the whole point of the game. that and him investigating himself with the twist. I dont mean to be rude or memey. But do you have autism?

You've been watching NL?

>product made with literal artists can't be art
>also what is Kinetic Art

Stay fucking assravagingly mad pseudo intellectual college dropout-kun

Yeah that shit was dumb. I had him pegged as the killer for a while up until the clock store shit at the very end, where the way they presented it it just seemed logically impossible for that to be the case. But nope turns out I was right and the game just fucking lies to you.

Wow, you have absolutely no standards for writing whatsoever. You just eat up what Cage pooped out and it's all fine because the culprit is crazy, and that's it. That covers the entire mystery. He just happens to be the specific brand of crazy that makes the entire conceit of the plot - being able to control the culprit and see what he's thinking without being able to figure out that he's the culprit - completely null and void. How fun! What's next, a locked room mystery where it turns out that the culprit was a ghost who can become immaterial at will?

Did you even play Heavy Rain?
inb4 >play

Anyone else watch NL retard his way through this game?

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Cage has written some terrible garbage. But you are literally describing fiction. "wow how convenient Harry happens to be a wizard and the "chosen one"" "wow how convenient Junko happend to be the ultimate Despair" etc. Things that arent contrived dont make good fiction.
> He just happens to be the specific brand of crazy that makes the entire conceit of the plot
It wouldnt a be a story otherwise. Crazy essentially means you are unable to discern fiction to reality to varying degrees and outcomes. Crazy people kill people. People who kill people make interesting stories. It also isnt even that uncommon. Ever told a convincing lie? you can argue it so well and repeatedly you eventually get mad at people for not believing you until you sit back and remember its not true. Its the same. What is pants on head retarded is
>being able to control the culprit and see what he's thinking
That is not at all true. You get a sample of all the characters thoughts as a mechanic. You falsely assumed this was 100% of their thoughts which is an absurd assumption. When you are not controlling Shelby he is obviously having spoiler thoughts, and even when you are, he probably has them mixed in with the misleading ones. Only they are committed for mystery reasons. No different than any story with character narattion. I bet you hated the first case in DRV3 too.
yes, I did not mean Shelby was Currrazzy tier. I think people are falsely assuming that. But he is obviously crazy to some extent so I fail to see why he couldnt have these cherry picked thoughts.

You act like every mystery story isn't contrived just for the sake of the mystery.

Paranoid schizophrenic. Im the same. I feel like people listen to my thoughts so I have fake thoughts to hide the real ones. I know it's not true but feel like people watch my mind 24/7

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unreliable_narrator

Asshole I was about to play this game.
Yes it's a game piss off.

agreed. OP should have used Spoiler tags.

Step 1) Define what art is.
Step 2) Explain how something can't be art.

Adachi is the killer and he was being manipulated by the gas station attendant that shakes your hand at the beginning of the game.

Luke Skywalker is the son of Darth Vader.

Snape kills Dumbledore.

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THE REINS OF HISTORY BACK IN THE HANDS OF MAN

Is the game better with PSMOVE? Thinking of replaying, and I have PSMove for whatever fucking reason.

Why do you think OP started this thread?
I love the dude but he's such an incompetent fuck

The parts where Shelby's narration lies to you are bad, but people forget that half of his scenes are pointless anyway because they're about investigating the copycat killer who Shelby would logically know is a copycat but investigates anyway until the game drops that whole arc like a sack of wet rice once the twist is revealed.

>Let go of me you senile old fuck!
>You must have done some pretty hardcore drugs to look like that at your age
Those are the two I can think of off the top of my head.

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I think I lost several dozen brain cells watching him try to find the right green door today.

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The kid actually cares about Bruce and wants him to realize what's going on for himself so the truth won't be that traumatic.

1) Shelby was not originally the killer.
2) I thought the explanation of basically suppressed memories and MPD was sufficient for my suspension of disbelief.

Still a shit game.

Wait there was a copycat killer?
What the fuck, this is the first time I heard of this.

Kramer, the dude who Shelby spends most of his scenes investigating for no adequately explored reason.

Everyone knows the best way to play Cage games is to just intentionally fuck up every QTE right?

Wasn't the original idea that the identity of the killer could be different from playthrough to playthrough depending on player input, or did I hallucinate that?

The son of that rich dude

Very originally yes, but then the killer was going to be a different character altogether, then it was just Shelby, which happened the same time they cut out the paranormal parts.

Cage needs to axe all metaphysical and spiritual concepts and just make a fucking gritty down to earth game.

This and the fact that Shelby is probably He doesn't want to be the Origami Killer and goes to great lengths to distance himself (aside from his playable parts where he's hunting the "real" killer, he covers the children's eyes with mud so that they don't "see" him after death). Could be a variety of mental illnesses, including split personality.

You can also see him change when he brawls as the Origami Killer and as his regular detective self. Point being, he's an unreliable narrator and that's not the fault of the story. Shelby is intentionally trying to convince himself.

>Cage needs to axe all metaphysical and spiritual concepts and just make a fucking gritty down to earth game.

DETROIT SOON

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>Cage needs to axe all metaphysical and spiritual concepts and just make a fucking gritty down to earth game.
This. The first time I played Indigo Prophecy I thought this anyway. Heavy Rain reinstated this.
But now I am like an addict that just wants back on Mr. Cage's Wild Ride.

>Can see a character's thoughts
>Nobody ever thinks about having to go to the bathroom, or random sex, or that embarrassing thing they did in highschool

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>Cage needs to axe all metaphysical and spiritual concepts and just make a fucking gritty down to earth game.

most pleb thing i've read all week

>Can see a character's thoughts.
>They think in complete coherent sentences.

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Whatever the reason, the problem is that in a videogame any of the characters you incarnate in a mystery story are Detectives.
They are your points of access for collecting clues and trying to figure out what's happening.

And one of those characters purposefully feeds you false information. So there's absolutely no way you would be able to figure out the culprit before the reveal.

It's just unsatisfying most of the time, very hard to do well. Usually you need a strong story and strong characters. Heavy Rain has neither. It's a scatterbrained approach at a mystery story with a bunch of incoherent backgrounds that go nowhere.
Ethan's story is completely single minded and hinges on that hilariously forced introductory scene where Jason jumps in front of a car for no reason.
Shelby brings a generic noir type story with heart-of-gold prostitute included.
Norman... the fuck is Norman even about. What is his purpose in the story? Holy shit, he's just there for the pointless glasses garbage.
And whatherface's the insane reporter who gets attacked by ninjas is just a fuckdoll that exists to give Ethan someone to end up with.

Everybody is poorly written, none of it mixes well. The mystery aspect is poorly handled.
Fahrenheit goes to shit in the last third, but at least it managed to be coherent for the rest of the game.
tl;dr david cage is a hack

its stated shelby has a split personality in the manual you fucking illiterate cunts.

>Could be a variety of mental illnesses, including split personality.
You're inventing excuses for the game that are directly contradicted by its actual contents. At the finale of the game he directly and openly reveals himself as the killer, no matter who's there, and behaves completely lucidly. There's no "split personality" at work there, it's the same Shelby we've seen all along except he's trying to kill Ethan or Madison or FBI guy. Nothing in the game, not even the FBI profile, mentions the idea that the killer suffers from a split personality (covering the victims eyes is highlighted as the killer attempting to make them anonymous). You certainly don't "see him change" - he looks the same, talks the same, acts the same except for the murdering.

And for god's sake, David Cage is a writer who handles mental illness with all the subtlety of a combine harvester. The mental hospital in Farenheit was a straight-out-of-the-1800s insane asylum where all the mental patients acted like savage, slow-walking zombies. Shelby's dementia-ridden mother, while treated more sympathetically, is still presented in such a fashion that her mental illness is impossible to ignore. Do you honestly think David Cage of all people would write a character with a mental illness and NOT have so much as a line acknowledging it in the script?

who else currently enjoying the northernlion playthrough

Murder on the Orient Express

but he doesn't. none of that is reflected in the game. in fact, the opposite is reflected; Shelby is actively destroying evidence during the segments where you play as him.

fuck off with your eceleb

>reading the manual

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id trust the manual and storywriter before some fag on Sup Forums

Nobody with taste.

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>How did they not clue in Kevin Spacey was Kaiser sosay? Fuck off.

Kevin Spacey is narrating the story to the cop investigating the case, of course hes not going to tell him hes the big bad guy.

ZTD actually has the most foreshadowed twist but it's still the one people hate the most.

What is unreliable narration, Alex?

I saw the "thoughts" more as character narration than like a Charles Xavier mind reading, or dump of their biggest secrets. So
I cant imagine how anyone would see it otherwise.

when the game first came out somebody wrote an article about how Heavy Rain broke every single fundamental law about mystery fiction, I wish I could find it. Chances are Cage did it intentionally to be a "trendsetter auteur" or some shit

the "unreliable narrator" is a legitimate and accepted literary device

interesting

do you remember some of the laws that it broke?

Kevin Spacey is retelling the story, you aren't witnessing it firsthand like you are in Heavy Rain. Incredible brainlet post.

"be good"
and "make sense" are the big two AFAIK.

I can tell you one.
The detective is never the culprit.

You guys know he was baiting right.... ever heard of... Roger ebert, the eternal philistine?

Just because it's a defined poetic term doesn't mean someone can brutally fuck up it's usage and implementation.

Yeah dipshit. And Roger Ebert is equally wrong

Deathnote.
Not really a mystery though. Im surprised it is not more common. From like a narcastic point.They are always following it around.

>the ability to hear the killer's thoughts would have been a great opportunity to write ambiguous internal thoughts that take on a whole new meaning with the knowledge that he's the killer
>David Cage didn't seem to realize this and instead wrote the thoughts as if Shelby weren't the killer

How did this happen? Was writing ambiguous dialogue that sounds innocent but is actually sinister on second glance too hard?

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Sure. But OP is literally just posting
>THE NARRATOR IS UNRELIABLE!
like it is a flaw. The game is shit. But the fact that Shelby does not spill the beans when you play him is not the reason.

unfortunately I don't remember them all but this guy is right that was definitely the big one

giantbomb.com/profile/dreamkin/blog/heavy-rain-story-review/56951/

>The cause seems to be a genuine lack of knowledge about the genre. David Cage simply writes as a fan of mystery stories who doesn't really get how great mystery writers actually make their stories work. Instead of making research into serial killers, perhaps it would have been a better investment to make research into mystery literature.