Why do you bully web devs? ;_;

Why do you bully web devs? ;_;

Other urls found in this thread:

codeflow.org/entries/2010/nov/29/verlet-collision-with-impulse-preservation/
lolengine.net/blog/2011/12/14/understanding-motion-in-games
phycomp.technion.ac.il/~david/thesis/node34.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_languages_used_in_most_popular_websites
youtube.com/watch?v=pB0WvcxTbCA
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uber_(company)
infoworld.com/article/3014207/javascript/nodejs-google-go-drive-uber.html
twitter.com/SFWRedditVideos

Neets are mad that their magic C and fizz buzz will not let the leave basement and live on their own, while people with JS are making real money

>JS gives higher salaries
>So does prostitution
The thing is: you're not bullied, it's just that all these languages make it very easy to prototype stuff fast, which is great and all, the problem is when this kind of thing tries to make way into final products, it just makes it bloated as hell. Just like using an Arduino for a prototype, but never put it on a final product. You just don't control everything that is under the hood.

Coz I am stuck in a large corporation with no future, getting 20k less than a webdev without cs degree in some san fran basement in a startup.

Other than that, the majority are bad at programming.

Compared to what? JS has all the functionality to keep it light, it's just up to the developers to actually structure it correctly.

I doubt that there is more than few people on Sup Forums that actually work with C, 99% fizzbuzzers are basement dwellers who claims that ide is hipster shit.

When you are working for a client, after a while code quality means less and less, because your client does not give a shit about your coding practices but end product and you are focusing on doing thins fast because literally time is money.

>web dev
>node.js

The reason people get into web dev is because they don't want to do java, why would you voluntarily do javascript?

>HTML+CSS+JS+Node.js

What more do I need to learn for a first job in web dev?

PHP is not an option.

I enjoy Java. The reason JS is my favorite language to work with is the plethora of frameworks and all the new stuff that comes out all the time. Some people view it as negative because they aren't learners and just want to do the same thing forever. They deserve their lower salary for that reason. JS devs are learning more because there's more to learn.

earning more*

>Front end framework: Angular (or React)
>Task runner: gulp or grunt (sass, jade, babel compilation)
>Test framework: Karma (frontend), Mocha + Chai
>Templating engine: Jade or Handlebars
>CSS framework: Bootstrap (preferred) or Foundation
>Misc: Webpack, Lodash
>Coding style: AirBnb
>Server: ExpressJS (static frontend with RESTful API)
>Database: Mongoose (MongoDB)

Because you're the kind of idiots who think that it's okay to use JavaScript to make a fucking text editor.

ASP.NET ALL THE WAY

Why would you learn new things that do exactly the same as the older technologies, sometimes even worse? I do PHP and make 65k a year, saving myself the headache of keeping thousand libraries up to date and running, and I can spend my time learning by helping others, or by doing open source projects. I'm the main front-end guy in our team so I do tons of JS as well, but I just hate it in general.

Either RubyRails or PythonDjango.

It's a mindset. Sure the new tool/framework is very possibly worse and you end up creating something worse for your client, but the point is that it's different and that makes it more fun than doing the same thing forever.

You get paid more for having this mindset is all I'm saying. It doesn't matter if you're a web dev or whatever.

>there's more to learn

Like how to left pad a string?

>You just don't control everything that is under the hood.
>On a website which is so abstracted from the hardware
Oh shut up. This "Everything that is done must be done as close to the metal as possible" meme needs to die.

And you're the kind of idiot who thinks they're so important that they have a name and a tripcode to differentiate themselves from a website full of nameless people for discussing anime.

Algorithms/theory was not included in what I meant to learn as those are language agnostic. As for syntax, I assume you know the important parts. Rather, JS is known for having a new framework coming out every other week.

You always have something new to play with and something new to learn. The Angular craze is dying down this year and React is the new cool thing. We'll have to see how Angular 2.0 performs. I've done a project in Angular 2.0 and it is VERY different from 1.x. Typescript is awesome and should shake things up.

I've switched to web dev kinda recently (in the last year or so) and all I've learned about JS is how shitty it is to work with and maintain compared to something like C/C# or even Java.

Ultimately we've decided to port our entire project to typescript because maintaining JS on a larger web application is a nightmare.

It's definitely hard to get right, just the language itself has a surprisingly steep learning curve. I'd say in general for any project, but especially so for JS projects, the more you decouple the easier it is to maintain.

But it's great that you guys went TS.

If you're building a large-scale project you shouldn't be using JavaScript. Remember to use the right tool for the right job.

You are missing both the joke and the point of the joke.

No I actually got it, but I chose to ignore it.

sounds like you just have hurt feelings because you're a loser user.

Because they are envious. They are not even good at programming.
If you ask them to write something like picrelated in C, they won't be able to do it.

t. user that knows both c and javascript

Get out of here Pajeet.

I have a job teaching node.js to impressionable young high schoolers this summer. I want to die.

>Because they are envious. They are not even good at programming.
>If you ask them to write something like picrelated in C, they won't be able to do it.
>t. user that knows both c and javascript


you can program that? very nice!

where can i learn to do than, user?

>not fliriting wih highschool qtbois

dum-dum

kys

Because they don't know shit about computers yet claim to anyway. All they know are shitty languages which they barely understand how to code in, and since browsers are all they know (and even then barely), they don't even understand the basics of computers or programming, which is why they all have shitty Macbooks.

It's not an impressive or important field, it requires little skill and all the communities surrounding it are full of hipsters and retards.

>you can program that?
Yup! I can also program many other things, like picrelated (implemented in node.js) though this isn't a finished work yet.

To implement that you have to know basic vector algebra (the same stuff gamedevs know), basic physics (newton's laws, hooke's law) and basic numeric math (euler or verlet integrators). All of these things are on wikipedia, in game programming books and in blogs.

codeflow.org/entries/2010/nov/29/verlet-collision-with-impulse-preservation/
lolengine.net/blog/2011/12/14/understanding-motion-in-games
phycomp.technion.ac.il/~david/thesis/node34.html

etc

...

Whats the problem?
One of them actually cares and wants to learn it?

...

>It's not an impressive or important field

Facebook: 100+ bln market cap
Google: 100+ bln market cap
Amazon
Uber
Instagram
Twitter
Pinterest
Whatsapp
Snapchat
Etsy
...

billions of people depend on web applications in their day to day lives. You can't say the same thing about most pieces of C code that belong to obscure libraries almost nobody uses. There is linux kernel and userland, but Sup Forums neets don't commit in those.

nigga, the operating systems are written in C / C++/ Assembly.

all computers in the world run under those languages.

>[web dev] requires little skill

You haven't done much programming at all, have you?

All computers in the world run HTML5/JS as well.

Some people do it because they're douchebags and only know C.

This is made easier by the fact that Mongo is usually the DB of choice for a lot of webdevs, and Mongo objectively sucks. This fact, coupled with JavaScript being a weird language, makes webdev an easy target for loser NEETS.

>databases
>mongoose

No. not every computer in world runs HTML5 in their browser. might not be supported.

what if a computer doesn't have internet? what then?

still running C and Assembly though

>JavaScript has a reputation for being incredibly hacky due to the constraints of a completely safe language required for client-side browsing languages
>"I know, let's write all our backend business logic with it"
>"Oh, no tools exist for that? Let's create a bunch of shoddy, half-working replacements for decades of tools and then ship production code with it"

Web developers are bullied because they're almost all entry-level developers making hilariously naive decisions because they have no real-world experience (and often don't even have a degree or background in CS). Keep web developers on the front-end where they belong, and aren't responsible for real products.

react, angula, php, go (this one will make you look real good), typescript

There's two kinds of web devs.

Those who know what they're doing, and those who use NodeJS.

Nobody's out bullying python, go, ASP.NET, Spring, etc. Just the fresh grads who sing praises of NodeJS without any real understanding of web development (left-pad anyone?)

>still running C and Assembly though

Most probably a version incompatible to mainstream x86-64 then. C is not portable. Asm is not a single platform (lol) anyway.

1) HTML5/JS is a powerful platform that delivers applications to billions of people around the world, it runs on billions of devices.
2) Javascript is a descendant of Scheme and Self, so it is pretty cool language, especially if you forgive it its small defects. Solving the same problem in javascript seems to require 3-4x less code and 2-3x less dev time than solving it in C/C++/Java.
3) Fastest compilers/runtimes ever written for a dynamic languages were written for JS: V8, Chakra, Spidermonkey, Javascriptcore. JS is the fastest dynamic functional language in the world.

>python
almost nobody uses it, also it is slow and ill-defined language.

> ASP.NET, Spring
hello 5$/hr pajeet

>go
Cool, but not as expressive as JS

Not using Node.JS for webdev isn't a smart choice now. High performance, functional features, many libraries.

stale pasta faggot

I agree with everything but:
>aren't responsible for real products

The UI/UX is a __real__ product. If you have a shitty UI that takes a second and a half to load, you're going to lose business. You have to have a UI/UX team that knows what they're doing.

Dumbass management has been sold on the idea "let's have a common language between the client and server!" because they think they can cutout some or all of the back end teams. Obviously, they are mistaken.

The inexperienced devs doing front end work then make horrible decisions that bite the organization in the ass over and over again.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_languages_used_in_most_popular_websites

This

>They are going to replace me!!!1 Let's bully them at least!!

Not all of us work for shitty digital agencies.

In answer to OP's question, the reason Node people get bullied is because of the retarded and clearly unresearched claims that it's automatically "more performant" than other stacks.

Guess what though, single threaded event loops are not new, and they also don't work well for CPU-bound work, yet you faggots keep applying this shit without any understand of why a multithreaded system might actually he better. Then again, if you're using Node you're probably not doing much more than gluing a frontend to a database anyway, so I guess it doesn't matter after all.

youtube.com/watch?v=pB0WvcxTbCA

>Cool, but not as expressive as JS
JS has so many pitfalls that it's unreasonable to expect the majority of pajeets not to write something that has a bug in an edge-case or is just outright wrong.

Don't get me wrong, Go has a lot of problems (that don't need discussed ITT), but I'd almost always choose to minimize my organization's reliance on JS technology.

>When you are working for a client, after a while code quality means less and less, because your client does not give a shit about your coding practices but end product and you are focusing on doing thins fast because literally time is money.

Why not minimize your organisation's reliance on Pajeets?

Also, use a highly opinionated linter, and do mandatory code reviews. This should be the case for any language you use.

> yet you faggots keep applying this shit without any understand of why a multithreaded system might actually he better

Straw-man

Everybody scales node by using multiple processes which is similar to multithreading. People are not stupid to run 1 node process on 20-core xeon.

>Actually believing that the latest framework is actually any different
>Actually believing that it will be around longer than 6 months before something else comes along for people to get excited about that will also do essentially the same thing as before

Backend JS developers aren't replacing anyone. The phenomenon is exclusive to Bay Area startups riding whatever flavor of the month buzzwords will get them VC funding.

Uber, a 25-billion company uses node for backend

IBM uses and promotes node, etc.

Not to sound as a node fanoboi, I know a lot of other languages (even ASM lol). Still, JS is convenient for the developer due to its functional dynamic OOP features and performance.

This phenomenon is also why it's bad to outsource code from your organization.

The consultant will realize that they should make decisions that make their life easier to keep the customer satisfied, but these easy decisions usually aren't the right decisions, and they make the end application much more complex than it needs to be. The result is a brittle, buggy, static application that was doomed to rot from the start.

Once an organization gets above a certain size it's impossible to personally inspect every programmer you hire. This, coupled with simple human error, means I'm going to choose a language that is more forgiving. JavaScript is simply not a forgiving language, and no linter in the world can fix that. Even with mandatory code review, this can't be fixed.

Components will probably need done in JavaScript, fine. But I'm not going to decree that we should use it for everything.

>Depending on Facebook
>Not medical software written in C

>Uber Technologies Inc. is an American multinational online transportation network company headquartered in San Francisco, California

>IBM has today made another acquisition to expand its business in cloud services — specifically in the area of enterprise app development. It has acquired StrongLoop, a startup based in San Mateo that builds application development software for enterprises using the open source JavaScript programming language Node.js

I stand by what I said.

Hope I don't get to work under you, I hate large organizations anyway.

Organizations are optimized for making reliable limited interchangeable cogs out of their employees, that's why they use java and java-like technologies.

Solitary programmers are interested in maximum power and freedom, that's why they tend to use dynamic functional languages like Lisp or JS.

>Once an organization gets above a certain size it's impossible to personally inspect every programmer you hire.
Bullshit. At Google, at least, your code gets reviewed and you MUST meet a specific test coverage %. I know for a fact this happens at Facebook too.

Yesterday there was a thread about embedded development. Embedded anons said that their work is shitty, pays little and they get away with shipping crap to locked-in customers.

Medical may be different (though its embedded too and there were known errors in med software).

I will never work in embedded, I'll only do it as a hobby. Earning $ with webdev is way easier.

Following up:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uber_(company)

>Uber was founded by Garrett Camp, the founder of StumbleUpon, and Travis Kalanick in 2009. The company received $200,000 in seed funding that same year.
>By the end of 2011, Uber had raised $44.5 million in funding.

infoworld.com/article/3014207/javascript/nodejs-google-go-drive-uber.html

>"The majority of these were written on Node from, I would say, the first year or so of the company, so pretty early," Croucher said. He also noted that Uber was one of the first adopters of Node and one of the first companies to "really build a big business on top of it."
>But Node.js isn't the only workhorse at Uber. Google's Go language also has established a foothold. "We started writing some things in Go, so that's been some of the high-performance systems where initially we might write something in Node. Some of those are currently being rewritten in Go in particular places where it makes sense, just to get a little bit more optimization from the system."

So Uber actually started with NodeJS to get funding, and is now rewriting their codebase in Go. Weird how that almost aligned 1:1 with what I said.

I'm a Lisper. I'm not arguing against dynamic languages.

This is an objective fact: JavaScript has a relatively large amount of pitfalls compared to other high-level languages. These are all things that the developer has to consider that distract from the task at hand.

Tests are great, but almost all bugs passed tests.

Also, I wasn't talking about code reviews. I was stating that your infinite judgement can't be used to screen dumbasses, and this fact combined with human-error will mean that there are bad developers out there.

>JavaScript has a reputation for being incredibly hacky due to the constraints of a completely safe language required for client-side browsing languages
No. Javascript has a reputation for being incredibly hacky due to the early history of the web being a clusterfuck of a war between Netscape, Microsoft and Sun.

But there's literally nothing about Javascript that makes it a 'safe' language for client-side browsing. Its the browser's responsibility to create a sandbox environment for scripts to execute in, not Javascript's. The DOM is the browser API that Javascript gives you access to, the DOM doesn't include anything like filesystem access, or local network access. But Node does giveyou those things because its intended as a server environment. You could theoretically put anything in the browser, and people are working on making that happen with WebAssembly

But yeah apart from that really important fundamental detail, good post. It almost sounded like you knew what you were talking about.

>no real-world experience (and often don't even have a degree or background in CS)

kek most CS graduates can't fizzbuzz their way out of a paper bag. I've been programming since 2003 and have no CS degree.

This is exactly my point. Node (or any single threaded polling loop such as Twisted) works for low CPU, high IO work where you can take advantage of not needing a thread to utilise a core.

In any other situation you're no better off. And if you're running multiple Node processes and you have a callback with a significant non-IO delay then you've still got that delay for every other user who ends up in the event loop of a single process.

Is Ruby an acceptable language?

you need to fuck off actually, the faster the better

>This is an objective fact: JavaScript has a relatively large amount of pitfalls compared to other high-level languages. These are all things that the developer has to consider that distract from the task at hand.

I agree with you here. JS could be better, but for me it's good enough. Your justification for using go or java in your business is reasonable of course.

>Microsoft open sources .NET core
>Runs on every major platform
>Develops cross-platform IDE to utilize it

>IDE is built with fucking HTML/CSS/JS

why

>Once an organization gets above a certain size it's impossible to personally inspect every programmer you hire.

You mean you hire managers who don't actually know how to program and can't do code reviews?

Maybe if you weren't writing shitty code, you wouldn't be spending all your time paying off technical debt and putting out fires, and you'd actually have time to make sure you're not writing shit?

>JavaScript is simply not a forgiving language, and no linter in the world can fix that.

What the fuck are you talking about? Its a super forgiving language. Its probably the most beginner friendly language in the world. It'll let you get away with murder.

Try ESLint with most of the rules turned on, it will enforce a consistent coding style and catch a ton of shitty errors and antipatterns.

Have you seen recent es6 based commercial code bases? Sure, if it's architected by bad engineers then you'll get bad bloated code, but modern JS written by good engineers is both light and performant.

Don't get me wrong, I prefer lower level code too (mainly C++), but I don't buy into the idea of JS being a bad language. It was bad in the past, but with ES6 it's actually becoming a good language.

>>Develops cross-platform IDE to utilize it
you mean VS Code? I'd hardly call that an IDE

Real Visual Studio is made with c#.

It is good enough in plenty of cases.

Part of g's problem is so many user say
>what works in one specific use-case will work in another
Then the autists start arguing we should be writing networked applications in assembly.

Which is fine. I'd hate to do medical devices because responsibility is scary, and most other devices are shitty electronics.

I only meant that some of those "important" things really aren't literally life saving, with ones that support peoples home business existing in some awkward middle ground, were site downtime would affect sales but not kill anyone.

VS Code has a console, process debugger, intellisense completer, file explorer, syntax highlighter, etc. It's an integrated development environment.

Sup Forums is 80% teen gamers 10% college freshmen who whine if you don't help them with their assignment, 5% poor neets and 5% people like you and maybe myself that have some experience.

No wonder Sup Forums's opinions are so immature and polarized.

Languages are not that important anyway, applications are.

>Languages are not important anyway, applications are.
restored my faith in Sup Forums.

>If you have a shitty UI that takes a second and a half to load, you're going to lose business.

This is something I wish the autistic cuck "devs" on this board would understand.

I truly appreciate all the work that goes into back end programming but the reality of the world is that you are making a tool that people use. If it's a pain in the ass to use or look at nobody is going to use it.

>VS Code has a console, process debugger, intellisense completer, file explorer, syntax highlighter, etc. It's an integrated development environment.

That's all very nice but it's a compiler that makes it an IDE

Because it's so fucking easy. Web devs are the most insecure babies who typically can't program worth a shit and use pre-made tools to do their work for them.

What? Why would an IDE ship with a compiler instead of using the systems? When you install Eclipse, it's compiling with your system's JDK. When you install Code::Blocks, it's compiling with your system's compiler.

I think VS is actually the only IDE that ships with its own compiler, mostly because of how fucked up Windows programming is in terms of shared libraries and such.

And the state of web UI/UX is basically hell.

There are still horrible browser incompatibilities, and dumbass management is always pushing for using the latest design element they've seen that often requires a different implementation across every browser.

They never ask the question:
>how does this make it easier for the customer?

Customers value a fast, secure, and discoverable interface. Management is gradually realizing it, but a lot of them still have their heads up their ass.

>2016
>Still debating node.js vs go vs java vs php
>Instead of debating on best framework for deep machine learning
>Tensorflow, Torch, Caffe, Theano, Chainer, Leaf, DarkNet

Why is Sup Forums so slow

You have to understand that the average user on this board is an autistic cuck who learned programming but is too socially awkward to get a meaningful job so they was away posting about how smart they are on a site dedicated to chinese cartoons.

Meanwhile web development is generally easier for normies to understand and it's in very high demand. Meanwhile the autists get angry/jealous that someone who isn't quite as smart as them can make a career that pays similarly because they have the social skills it takes to survive in society.

Precisely.

pic related

>On a website which is so abstracted from the hardware
>Oh shut up. This "Everything that is done must be done as close to the metal as possible" meme needs to die.
Stop bringing this shitty technology elsewhere, we don't need fucking javascript to develop native programs.
This trend needs to die, we already have enough good tools to make good softwares without this retarded language.

>Stop bringing this shitty technology elsewhere, we don't need fucking javascript to develop native programs.
>This trend needs to die, we already have enough good tools to make good softwares without this retarded language.
Why?

spoiler: you can't answer this question because like most programmers your argument is 100% emotional knee-jerk gut reaction.

You realise that people like you have been kicking and screaming every time something new has come along?

>What the fuck are you doing with this assembly crap? You're wasting precious machine time on clerical work, that's for humans to do! Binary is good enough for anyone! That's not really programming!

>What the fuck is this FORTRAN crap? You're not a REAL programmer unless you write in Assembly!

>I need GOTO! It's an essential part of any programming language!

>What the fuck is this OOP shit?

Waaa waaa waa same shit different decade. Save yourself some time, shave your neckbeard and stop being yet another incarnation of the same crotchety piece of shit trying to hold back development just because you don't want to have to learn a different way of doing things.

>>I need GOTO! It's an essential part of any programming language!
... and its companion COMEFROM.
How else do you know where to RETURN to?

Basically this, it doesn't have to be great quality efficient code, 99% of clients don't give a shit. Its either 'this search box takes too long to load' or nothing. So unless it's so bad its clearly problematic, client wont know, or care to know

>why?
Because we ALREADY have BETTER tools to do the work, you don't want to learn them? It's your problem, but don't push your language where it does not belong to.
C, C++, java are easy to learn and you can make graphical programs pretty fast with well designed libraries.
You have to learn to use the right tools for the right tasks if you can't do that you will stay an average code monkey all your life
and you CV won't grow as you refuse to learn.

The average neckbeard you quoted is more willingly to learn new things than "normal" people, you learned a tool to make money, he learned it because it gives you knowledge and show you diferents ways to solve problems.

I make an 120k salary programming in C and assembly and my coworkers make the same writing Java and Python.

This thread is a bunch of fucking retards trying to argue apples and oranges.

Also avoid try to avoid C, everyone is definitely shit at it. Just check out some CVE's