Using harmful software in the current year

> Using harmful software in the current year

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Considered_harmful
youtube.com/watch?v=MijmeoH9LT4
cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=svg
suckless.org/sucks/)
suckless.org/sucks/systemd
harmful.cat-v.org/cat-v/unix_prog_design.pdf
twitter.com/SFWRedditVideos

Good thing i use windows

WinShit IS harmful software too

> Regular FOSS technologies are too mainstream for me to feel special about myself

What is wrong with GCC?

> A regular expression schema is harmful
> A terminal multiplexer is harmful
> A compiler is harmful
> Fucking nano is harmful
> Database queries are harmful
> A vector graphics format is harmful
> A sound system is harmful (heh, was he around for Pulse?)
> A utility to show the first n lines of a file is harmful

I don't get this shit? Define harmful. Harmful to whom? Was he just a master-level memer?

Optimization flags having an influence on warnings is plain retarded. So are non-standard language extensions.

>XML
>JSON
but, wait, what?

Plain retarded is wasting trips writing such an idiotic opinion.

>I don't get this shit?
I don't get why millenials are allowed to graduate from primary schools without learning grammar 101.

>Define harmful.
Overly complex (GNU cat), broken by design (GNU's bigint library aborting on failed mallocs) and coding conventions that make you want to puke (GNU coding style). Was that so hard?

why did Uriel take his own life?

>Optimization flags having an influence on warnings is plain retarded
God damn, you're stupid. It's not like they were being stupid and disabling warnings with the lack of optimisations. The fucking optimisations themselves uncover more warnings themselves, because the compiler is analysing the code a lot more.

I reread my post, and I realised I forgot to delete some redundant words after rewording my sentences.

He was permanently harmed when he visited a webserver that runs on Apache with a Django (Python) backend that made SQL queries. He quickly alt-tabed but straight into a pdf that he had gotten in an email through IMAP and he was permanently harmed so he just killed himself.

> learn grammar
It was a leftover from when I wrote it differently. But nice job on finding an irrelevant mistake on which to base your ad hominem.

> cat is too complex
Come on, that meme died decades ago

> One quirk with one library
Wow yeah throw the whole project in the trash

> My opinion on coding style
Ok sport


kek'd

Now you explain me the logical relationship between unused return values and optimizations.

>a third-party lib nuking your project runtime is perfectly fine
I'm happy I'll never be using the retarded Java shit you programmed.

XML suffers too much from allowing exstensibility and json is to small a standard to be useful, most of how people use it is by convention.

> Json
> CSV
> awk
> C
> tmux
> man pages
> UTF-8
> Git, hg
> PS

Yeah, totally not mainstream. kill you're self

guarantee you dont have a college degree

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Considered_harmful

Hope you are kidding. It's basic knowledge

MSc comp eng, not the one you replied tho.
[spoiler] He's right [/spoiler]

>not being neet
haha degreecuck

why are you so mad though

Rob Pike said mean things to him apparently

Life considered harmful

Why don't you guys get an actual job and use whatever the company says you should use?

That's how real life works.

regardless of if he is right only hurting ass brainlets pull that dumb grammar shit

I know the meme of “considered harmful”, what I'm saying is I don't understand these decrees of harmful/less harmful. Some of them I can kind of see (nonstandard extensions, not POSIX, etc) but why is SQL, SVG, and Nano harmful? The fuck is harmful about Nano?

And literally no one will use anything you code ever. Get a job neckbeard.

UTF-8 is harmful too. ASCII is not.

What’s that? Your region doesn't use Latin script? That’s too bad

are you ignoring that he suggests 'less harmful' alternatives for all of the software he has a problem with? it's not that terminal multiplexers are considered harmful but that gnu screen explicitly is considered harmful as it has a reputation for being a buggy dead project with an unmaintainable codebase that has largely been superseded by.. wait for it.. tmux...
the problem with a lot of the software listed comes down to this, unmaintainable codebases because they either have feature bloat and added complexity while never undergoing code review or rewrites or even pruning of obsolete features, or because they were largely wrote decades ago and are kept bad on purpose for backwards compatibility (hence a lot of gnu stuff is listed), in other cases being considered harmful can come down to the programs being dumbed down for a larger audience in an attempt to appear simplistic but end up being more complicated as a result especially for people that know what they're doing - this is the case for vim

>> A sound system is harmful (heh, was he around for Pulse?)
and as far as this goes I have to assume this is bait because linux is known for having an absolutely dogshit audio stack and it's not just because of pulseaudio

Nice meme, but a millon different encodings was far worse youtube.com/watch?v=MijmeoH9LT4

Then why use this nebulous “harmful” terminology to describe things that could be buggy, unmaintainable, noncompliant, or a mix of the above when he could have used the actual words describing the speicific problems. E.g. Screen is buggy and unmaintainable, Glib is bloated (so they say) and nonstandard. Calling everything you have some kind of a problem with “harmful” is vague and makes you sound dumb.

> I have to assume this is bait
I mean if he thinks ALSA is harmful for any of the above reasons he would have had an aneurysm at Pulse or Systemd.

I agree on most of those and don't really know enough to have an opinion on the rest.
The way I view it its the concept of hindering/hurting you on the front where the software is applicable. For instance GCC has held back C and C++ tooling for a long ass time by its very design. It's designed to be non-modular and difficult to use for developing another compiler/tool. Even foss compilers/tools actually. But more popularly and especially proprietary software. That was the case a couple years back anyway.
Use of that compiler hurts you in the long run even if you find the tool as used now OK.

That's my general impression of the use.

>nothing about systemd
you want me to take that seriously

utf8 is the perfect solution, even though in my opinion utf32 wouldve been better.

Because it's a broader category to describe a pattern someone has perceived.
I do agree that in general we have way too much generalization going on. Having specific complaints and making the specific claims is less harmful than categorical words like 'harmful'.
You'll find that most of the time (this list excluded) you don't just list harmful technology but you also argue about it. RMS website is an example.

>utf8 is perfect
>but utf32 is better
Doesn't work like that user. But I think I get what you mean. It's a minor preference for utf32.

"... considered harmful" is a well-known CS phrase coined by Dijkstra

>SVG
it's an 'image' format based on xml and needs a complicated parser as a result, and if that wasn't bad enough you can embed javascript into it, in what world would svg not be considered harmful? on a serious note though look up some of the vulnerabilities and cves for svg, it isn't pretty cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=svg

>Then why use this nebulous “harmful” terminology
because he considers the software to be harmful to computing in general and he's not particularly wrong, screen being buggy and unmaintainable is one thing but when it's basically a dead project and is still far more popular than tmux it's arguably causing harm, but as others have mentioned 'considered harmful' is a pretty well established and old term and conveys its point far more concisely
while I have to agree it's wishy washy and not really well defined and the arguments against the software could be fleshed out more we're basically arguing over a guys opinion, you don't have to listen to it, I don't even agree with a lot of it and happily use 'harmful' software, there have been other sites to try to describe their criticism in more depth (like suckless.org/sucks/) and while it's preferable it's incredibly resource intensive to have a fully in-depth criticism of software that isn't going to do much to sway other peoples opinions especially given other people have been writing incredibly well researched criticism on a lot of this software for decades - as is the case with sql

>I mean if he thinks ALSA is harmful for any of the above reasons he would have had an aneurysm at Pulse or Systemd.
I mean sure but he already criticises a shit ton of gnu stuff and it isn't too much of a stretch to think he considered linux harmful as plenty of openbsd/plan9 folk have a disdain for linux

Wow that list is fucking retarded? Go isn't harmful? SVN is? WTF?

...

suckless.org/sucks/systemd

Millenials, born 1980-2000, and heir boomer hippy parents, are the idiots spearheading this software cultural revolution.

You idiots don't get that this will NEVER take off. Your average user does not give a fuck how "harmful" you little trigglypuffs consider their software, they want it to actually work and not be some janky abortive "open source" hobby project hacked together by a twenty year old "GNU project contributor". If it works well and is marketed well it will be used. Ideological interent scare campaigns will not change that.

The table predates the systemd hating meme and the person who wrote it is dead.

He's using the word harmful to mean 'not minimalist', although both those things are true anyhow. Stop using obsolete version control and bloated javatard programming languages.

>best of all: don't use HTTP.
>writes this on a website
How many layers of irony was this written in?

>they want it to actually work and not be some janky abortive hobby project hacked together by a twenty year old
Then how do you explain the modern web?

Easily. The most popular websites are not faggot webdev class projects, but huge endeavors funded by massive companies like Google and Amazon. Nobody uses alternatives on the web, it's a practical monopoly.

Sure, the whole www is hacked together but the big sites work for the most part and that's what keeps people coming back. The web implementation only adds convenience.

http is used for a lot of shit it shouldn't be these days.

google was literally founded as a faggot webdev class project

No, it was completely legitimate research project that modeled the web as a graph problem.
The frontend for it was just a simple quickly put together website, which wasn't central to the project.

"webdev" isn't limited to front-end work and doesn't preclude research activity; you're basically redefining terms to fit your own biases at this point.

"faggot webdev" clearly means front-end

I think we have strayed too far from the One True Path that POSIX wanted us to take. It's time we Do One Thing and Do it Well once again.
The kernel does too much stuff. We should launch a separate kernel for every driver that has to be loaded.
X11 does more than one thing, too. We need a program to draw shit on the screen, another program to handle the colors, a program to handle each input and a different program to translate those inputs.
Let's not even begin with sound. We should have a separate server for each frequency.
Every program should also be written in C and every config and script should be plaintext, true; but the compiler should never compile more than one function. Each loop inside a program should be it's own, separate, process.

That's not doing one thing well desu

He has too good for this world.

Too give his bloated human body to superior bacteria that do one thing well.

You really should read the paper that "cat -v considered harmful" came from harmful.cat-v.org/cat-v/unix_prog_design.pdf
It explains a lot of his issues with GNU programs

>A regular expression schema is harmful
Perl's regexes in particular. Also read the shit on structural regexes.
>A terminal multiplexer is harmful
Not terminal multiplexer as GNU Screen because it's piece of trash as software with hardly maintainable codebase. As majority of things with GNU prefix.
> A compiler is harmful
^
>nano harmful
^^
>Database queries are harmful
Honestly can't think of reasoning for this one. Maybe just SQL implementations? Because he promoted postgre...
>Vector graphics harmful
Yes if a fucking vector graphics can lead to remote code execution.
>Sound system harmful
check sndio for comparisons

the issues with gnu programs are self-evident for anyone who has ever looked at their source code

SQL is pretty complex and often used by people who barely understand it, in applications in which it is overkill.

It all boils down to "muh bloat" and "muh UNIX."
There's no difference IRL if a binary is 32 KB more than the other when run. GNU software has also proved to be good and robust, which is why it's used everywhere. The only thing that keeps *BSD alive is, ironically, their licences; since companies such as Apple, Google and Sony don't want to release anything under GPL.
If these zealots got their way Windows' Notepad would be even more useless because it can search text and that's a "le bloat."

>Honestly can't think of reasoning for this on

The 'Unix Way' would be to use flat files or key-value stores, e.g. berkeleydb. In practice most times I've done this I've had to graft so much shit over top that I just wished I started with sqlite or something instead.

Windows notepad is shit, why doesn't it have a mail client?

You're retarded.
It's not harmful because it takes up a lot of disk space.
It's harmful because of its complexity. Which makes programs more opaque, harder to develop for, less secure, more bug-riddled, etc..
He likes static linking for example, which results in more wasted disk space but also less complexity.

KISS is a very basic and universal engineering concept - it's not just "muh UNIX".

>Which makes programs more opaque, harder to develop for, less secure, more bug-riddled, etc..

Oh shit kiddo, I hope you don't get hacked because of cat's -v flag. All your GNU bloat boils down to a few more command line flags and localization. Go stroke your dick that your version of cat was written in 50 LOC and not 200, really no one else gives a shit.

Nice virtue flagging.

>posting ironical bs from faglord uriel
>also hypocrite go fag while he stated how shitty is at reddit

It's actually around 800 lines.
FOR FUCKING CAT

I have yet to see those bugs in cat.

why cant i browse the web using cat?

It'd be fascinating if you were able to actually point to something in the source that's not supposed be there as opposed to sperging out over the loc.

>hasnt read cat -v considered hamrful
>thinks he is qualified to post in cat -v considered harmful: the thread

what is wrong with c++?

#define AUTHORS \
proper_name ("Torbjorn Granlund"), \
proper_name ("Richard M. Stallman")

what in the fuck

Maybe you should ask why you can't concatenate text using a web browser? But wait, you can!

Monolithic software design wins again.

im pretty sure gnu cat is monolithic
and it cant browse the web
why cant i just cat google.ca and get a print out of google.ca i mean if monolithics are so imperative why not incorporate all possible software needs into one binary

oh wait that would make it impossible to debug and slower than molasses to compile...almost... harmful...to computing

>a more complex program has a more complex code
Color me surprised.
I can't believe anyone takes seriously a guy/list that recommends using ed over other text editors. Ed is objectively dogshit, the worst text editor there is.
I don't care if it has 0 bugs or if it can't be "hacked", it's shit. And I mean "not even Microsoft does such shitty programs" kinda shit.
There's many things wrong with modern programs, but removing every feature and leaving a barely working mess that needs extensive manual or source code reading to perform basic operations is far from the solution.

It could be possible with plan9 network stack...

>Very complex grammar/syntax that makes compilers complex (ambigous grammar)
>very complex and inefficient library that could have a lot of bugs

what if... hey get this guys... what if we made binaries small.. like, they did maybe... idunno one thing? and then we could just focus on doing that one thing well... and we could chain them together using an operating construct and glue them together like you do with garden hose... we will call them pipes!

then we could actually take data and format and change it as we see fit! imagine the possibilities!

Most of which are documentation, a summary and license notice. All that is thrown away by the compiler anyway, so why are you so obsessed with LOC?

The MAD i found in the toilet made me a better person, unlike the cat-v memes.

case 'v':
show_nonprinting = true;
break;


>three line case branch to set a variable used by several other options to allow for the common case of reading files on the terminal

How about you actually read the source code and identify the flaws instead of parroting obsolete second-hand opinions from mid 80s computer design?

thanks for the bumperino (to the thread you apparently have nothing valuable to contribute (because you have been proved wrong)))

loc doesnt matter... you are appealing to a false god here

But there's no need for cat to be complex.
It has a simple purpose that be implemented simply.

People bring complexity in it by adding unrelated features like line numbering.
It's like putting a full-featured mail client into your browser.

some people just want to watch the world wide web burn :^)

It's not the fucking LoC, it's the functionality. Why does a tool for concatenating files together, modify files on output. The "common case of reading files on the terminal" is not the usecase of cat, that's the entire point.

that's not the whole code needed for "cat -v"

Who are you responding to? Does the quote function violate the Unix philosophy?

maybe i like to be ambiguous

or maybe i dont want to embarass anyone

People cat things to the terminal all the time. It's like you're actually surprised people picked up on a useful minor feature and put it to good effect in the 40 years since Unix was made and grew into roles it was never intended for.

All the remaining code is shared between "-v" and other options that use show_nonprinting. It'd be in the program regardless.

webbrowser,mail client, netflix streaming.. all useful all conveniently missing from cat.

Someone should make a meme cat program that can do these things

Web browsers already have those things, which is why GNU halted development of cat's featureset. They saw mozilla crossed the finish line first.

the whole reasoning of "cat -v considered harmful" is that can should give a shit about characters being non-printable and both -v flag and code branch around nonprintable characters should be separate program

it's always hilarious how these OOP faggots who preach "code reuse" and "muh generics" screech when actual code reuse and genericness are put into practice

the cat line numbering thing is a brilliantly obvious example. you could have two separate things which have a well-defined purpose and can be called upon as part of a composition of other building blocks... or, you could stuff more and more flags into a program whose purpose (and, let's not forget, name and manual page title) has nothing to do with emitting line numbers. it's like being so lazy and lacking in thought that you add more and more methods to a big all-encompassing class, and you OOP fags know how bad that is don't you?