>ISP shills claim the ultimate goal of net neutrality is to nationalize our Internet
>they say it as if it was a bad thing
Boy, I wish we were talking about nationalizing the Internet!
But unfortunately we're not, we're STILL struggling just to have free (as in freedom) Internet. Sad!
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I don't want an internet completely controlled by the government
I also don't want an internet completely controlled by regional or national corporate monopolies
I want an internet with lots of competition and freedom to innovate
I wouldn't care so much about net neutrality if we didn't have regional monopolies in the US.
Get rid of the fucking monopolies, then we can look at doing away with net neutrality, or changing it to better reflect the needs of the public and private entities at the same time, rather than one-siding it one way or another.
Corporations do not have a license to print money, and buying regulations that allow rent-seeking behavior should be regulated and outlawed.
>I want an internet with lots of competition and freedom to innovate
Well, I want an Internet completely controlled by the people.
Innovation and competition are nice, but until we stop repeating these truism-filled platitudes and start actually putting the people in control of the Internet, we're never gonna get any of that.
>Well, I want an Internet completely controlled by the people.
I can't even put into words how literally retarded you are, you want government sponsored sjw landwhales and other degeneracies to censor the internet and forced political correctness on the internet.
Hay retard ISP are already is monitored to the spy agencies.
If fiber was everywhere the spy agencies would drown in bucket loads of data. Run it like the electric grid.
The rail lines also need to be nationalize.
Can we just nationalize your mom and leave the internet alone? I mean, your mother is already pretty much public domain, so it's the only logical next step. She's just basically living out of semen as her caloric intake so more people should just get some profit back.
>a rule that says ISPs and governments are not allowed to throttle or block data based on origin, destination, or content (i.e. everyone gets a fair share of bandwidth that they paid for with no further discrimination of any kind), and are only allowed to do so for the sake of congestion control/qos (throttling heavy consumers as long as congestion is high so that they can't choke the lines and make everyone else's connections constantly fail) or for serious law violations like child porn sites, is surely a power grab by the government and is totally an attempt to thoughtpolice and nanny the internet
>in other news, the town of retardsville says the regulations that impede theft and murder are unfair to innovators who want to attempt novel business practices involving the seizing of property and the incorporation of high quality steel utensils into people's bodies, and they demand those regulations be scrapped because all they do is permit the police to kill people. Those laws were put in place to fix a problem that didn't exist anyway because nobody in retardsville was killing each other before killing was made illegal. On that note, we commemorate the time one guy was hatching big plans for his legal serial murders but then the laws came about and gave authorities an excuse to arrest this innocent man for comspiring to commit serial murder! Such oppression of an innovative mind who would have brought competition and free market to the town!
this is how anti-nn people sound
Strawman.
Ad hominem.
ISP shills are desperate!
Not an argument.
...
pointing out fallacies is a legit thing to do in an argument, because allowing fallacies ruins any argument
Nice disinformation, shill.
>b-but muh monopolies are government-supported
So the solution is separation between corporation and state. NOT reducing government power. A weak government is an easy to co-opt government.
The internet backbone could be partially owned and compleatly regulated by the state, providing an an open sourced policy alternative for the development of it's own infrastructure and technology for the telecommunications industry. It could easy facilitate the creation of more ISP's trough consortium's, creating more jobs, preventing monopolies and unfair competition.
It is tho. Happened in my country.
Until the same evil corps you are scared shit infiltrate the regulating agencies and start creating rules that favors them.
Nothing more lucrative to big corps than corporativismos and commie retards thinking government is the solution to everything.
> Part of a series on Socialism
Yeah this will work. Thats probably why socialist countries are so advanced and have such high quality of life standards.
You're right. sociopathic entities (corporations) should be able to prey on anyone at will. It's the publics fault that they put themselves into the position to be fucked, right?
So much misinformation and deception from both sides that a normal person literally can't come to a valid conclusion.
You can't switch governments as easy as you switch ISPs. Just saying.
And I wonder why is Sup Forums infested with communists lately.
By creating a government agency with literal root access to your markets you open a point that can be exploited by such evil corporations. They can make use of blackmail, bribery or just plant someone who is favored to them on these agencies. Now you are basically fucked because they will regulate everything towards their gain and not allow new players to enter the market.
Trust me. Here where I live we have regulatory agencies that basically exists to fuck the consumer. because they are a big magnet to corruption.
>You can't switch governments as easy as you switch ISPs
By Switching ISPs you mean going from predatory Comcast Cable, to predaotry mediocre DSL with Verizon.
You sir thinking real choice is an option in america is part of the problem. If there were multiple cable companies, or multiple fiber companies all competing in my area for my dollar...sure, I might be less concerned about net neutrality....but as it stands ISP choice is a talking point you need to strike from your conversations. I need protections from ISPs.
Also where did those funds the american tax payer put in during the 90's to build out broadband infrastructure to everyone....still waiting on it. I'll tell you where they went, the ISP executives fucking pockets. We tried to play nice with these assholes, and all they do is fuck us.
>false dichotomy
it's possible to nationalize the physical infrastructure while still allowing customer choice. In fact, city governments own and control the majority of the rights-of-way where fiber optics are installed. Extending their ownership to the fiber itself doesn't necessarily make the system any more 'communist'.
And the same evil corps that canceled the project for construction of the biggest particle accelerator ever conceived, are still infiltrated in your fucking government to sustain the biggest war machine that ever existed. Opposing the creation a universal healthcare service, and investing most of it's GDP in projects for the military through subsidiaries, linked to the same evil corps that help sustain your fucking war economy.
>the solution is separation between corporation and state
You are beyond naive. The symbiosis between the two will only ever grow, because that beneficial for both.
>I love to lick politician's balls
Good for you. Keep paying your taxes to support the wars, the police and all the new regulations on all aspects of your life, just don't drag me to hell with you.
>I want an internet with lots of competition and freedom to innovate
It already does and competition is getting better. If people want to know why China and Japan have better internet than most of the world its because of population density. Even big cities in America have been getting Google Fiber.
You do not need legislation to keep companies from throttling data nor have we ever needed NN to slap these ISPs with anti-trust suits.
NN is a last ditch power-grab of the remaining Democrat Elites to sieze more control of your internet and make lobbying bucks off of it.
They couldn't do any of it without partnering with the government. Now you want more government to fix the government problem.
Start running tor relay then
The infrastracture should be state owned. The internet is a strategic value . Just like energy
Ill never get the thinking of you Democrats. We can all agree the Government is corrupt but instead of draining the swamp and limiting Government control, you ask the government to get its hands dirty with more regulations. The same governments you cant trust with healthcare, education and everything else.
You ARE the problem.
But thats impossible because individual people can't build or maintain the infrastructure needed for the internet to work. Somebody built and owns that shit, and they aren't working for free. Maybe you could contract it out, but the administration work and on-the-ground management needed for a project like that (in all actuality hundreds, if not thousands of projects) is more than a full time job. You would need an entire team of full-time employees to pull it off (I say "team" loosely, it would most likely require thousands of employees), because good fucking luck finding anyone willing to do that much work for free.
Congratulations, you just formed a company and you're now back at square one.
>universal healthcare service
I can never not laugh at the socialist Orwellian buzzword dictionary. It's real name is state owned health system.Something that freezes the prices for medications and creates long lines of waiting for simple exams.
Also, all of your dreams of state owned anything will crumble when cryptocurrencies become popular and nobody is paying a dime to the state. Masturbate to your mortal gods while you can.
>we can all agree
No we can't. Many city and county governments are remarkably free of corruption. Even state level is pretty good in top-tier states.
Compare that to business leadership where the only rule is the almighty dollar.
>No we can't. Many city and county governments are remarkably free of corruption.
Nice try.
The government can't run the post office and make a profit.
You want them to run the internet now? Low level government employees are always going to be poorly educated blacks who have absolutely no sense of responsibility, and will do everything in their power to fuck up on purpose. Just look at how the VA is ran.
Were obviously speaking of the Federal Government if were talking about countrywide legislation. Not local.
Funny thing is, you think that image supports your argument. This is the best you can come up with?
Could you provide an example of one of those top-tier states?
I will laugh so hard at you blockchain apologists when states will start to develop and mine their own cryptocurrencies and begin to regulate your virtual wallets and processed payments. Mark my words fucko.
>We the people of Sup Forums built that internet
>Blue check wants to imminent domain our work
>Blue check takes our internet away
>Sup Forums stops maintaining it
>Internet crumbles in less than 30 days
Do these guys even know what a clusterfuck of chewing gum and duct tape the internet actually is? They want to take it from us? Knock yourselves out, brainlets.
>Ill never get the thinking of you Democrats
That's where you went wrong motherfucker, I'm no Democrat. I don't want more government, but I know corporations are inherently predatory. I just want REAL choice in an ISP, and after that happens I will chose the one that fucks me the least.
US'murica bipartisan democracy is sustained by corporate greed, gerrymandering and that's the real problem.
>That's where you went wrong motherfucker, I'm no Democrat. I don't want more government, but I know corporations are inherently predatory. I just want REAL choice in an ISP, and after that happens I will chose the one that fucks me the least.
The implication you dont have choice in an ISP is observably wrong. When phone carriers were subject to Title II we only had ONE phone carrier in this entire country, and that was Bell. That is what happens under NN rulings.
MEANWHILE there are 50-100 ISPs across all of America as we speak and this is all thanks to our open "Wild West" Internet. Sure it may not be ideal but infrastructure is not stagnant. Google Fiber is expanding and so are local ISPs.
And you really think that government regulation will help you achieve this? See
I dunno, Im Canadian and it works alright here most of the time. A couple months ago I had to go to the doctor for some weird rash I was getting, waited for like 45 min to get in, doctor looked at it and prescribed me some cream. I took the prescription to the attached pharmacy and got a tube of this shit for $18 and it cleared the rash up right away. I just looked up the price online for what it would cost in California (90210 was the first zip code that came to mind, maybe the price varies by income level of the surrounding area, I dunno), and it was $212.80.
Our healthcare isn't 100% socialist and state sponsored, but there is definitely a middle ground somewhere between "you're going to have to sell your home to afford your son's cancer treatment" and "you're going to have to wait 2 years to get a test done to see if you actually have cancer".
I never got why most americans go straight to umpth degree when discussing this, its not like one day you're going to be paying 0.5% more on your income tax and the next you're going to be getting shipped off to gulag because you didn't give enough of your grain to secret police.
Nice sophism. Where is your counter argument. I don't see it anywhere.
i really wouldn't mind universal healthcare or whatnot at a state level, but i don't think anything on that scale is remotely manageable on a federal level without becoming the same kind bureaucratic clusterfuck that's already most federal agencies. most people seem to forget that the united states has a third of a billion people
most of our's actually is ran by the province (same shit), and can vary a little bit province-to-province. Its federally subsidized though, and I completely agree with you, even in a country 1/10 the size our federal government is way to inept to handle that shit day-to-day, or to any degree above writing cheques.
I live in a rural area. I have 2 options of broadband, both actively engage in anti-consumer behavior. Are you suggesting I go back to dialup?
>a bloated document released in 2015 helped stop things that happened prior to 2015
>implying you have to support "Net Neutrality" to support the concept of net neutrality
>the govt gave a bill a nice name so obviously all of it benefits me, just like the patriot act!
Yeah, I'm totally the one spreading disinfo. Fucking Soros shills.
>"you're going to have to sell your home to afford your son's cancer treatment" and "you're going to have to wait 2 years to get a test done to see if you actually have cancer".
Even though this is a total strawman, Ill bite. Lets start with admitting this is a rare minority situation. And then we can speak in honest terms.
Lets also clarify the line between healthcare and health insurance. If you enter an ER in America, you will be treated by a doctor within the hour and patched up ASAP. It is true you will be given a large bill at the end of the month, but you will never be denied treatment. Lets also not forget how many charities would love to take care of your sob story even if you did have cancer.
>I never got why most americans go straight to umpth degree when discussing this, its not like one day you're going to be paying 0.5% more on your income tax and the next you're going to be getting shipped off to gulag because you didn't give enough of your grain to secret police.
What singlepayer societies dont understand is that singlepayer works in countries where most the populace generally pays their taxes, and in America more people dont than do.
At the end of the day you are getting what you pay for in America. While youre in another country waiting on your lines, that will make or break your health complications if you have an infection, a ruptured organ, a stage one disease,etc.
>No we can't. Many city and county governments are remarkably free of corruption.
hah! holy fuck. no. they aren't. you just don't read the local news and nobody else does. corruption is part and parcel with government. bureaucracies are so inefficient and destructive that the only way to get anything done is to go around the official rules.
the secret is to limit the fucking government. this was figured out like 3 centuries ago.
Lived in Canada, never had to wait in line, even for surgery.
I suggest threatening your ISP anyway if theyre fucking with your internet. It works 99% of the time. You can talk them into giving you their promotional package and lather rinse repeat every 6-12 months.
Otherwise ride it out and when your local telecoms see what backlash the telecoms in other counties are facing they will relent. Ive had Comcast for 10 years in another state and Ive still managed to maintain my ratio on my trackers easy.
let me guess, is you?
I don't need an argument. You're arguing that we should let the government have control over the internet and ISP markets because if we don't bad things will happen. The examples of bad things in that graphic are shitty examples, minor inconveniences at best. If you think letting the government intrude on the free market because you might be minorly inconvenienced is a good argument, well I guess you can think that if you want.
And each of those things listed were either stopped by the government or repealed after mass complaints. Fuck off.
The only promotional packages are to bundle services I don't and will never use. It's not about the price, it's about not having the data I requested artificially bottlenecked in hopes I cuck out and get bundled.
If you're actually dying you'll receive medical help immediately. It doesn't work on a queue here, its most critical served first. So if you just have a bad cough, or only need a couple stitches on your finger, you'll probably be waiting a while. But if you're having a heart attack you'll be brought into the ER right away.
That's why its always a better idea here to go to walk-in clinics rather than a hospital for minor, non life threatening shit. The waits are exponentially shorter because individual patients tend to not need as much attention (ie, they aren't actively dying).
> he wants his Internet DMV style
go away reddit
You can shill all you want, but all it boils down to for you is that you'll be charged for stuff that's free now, you won't have access to a lot of sites at all that you use now, your downloads will slow to a crawl unless you pay more, you'll be spied on and your data will be sold and eventually exposed to hackers even more than it already is.
And you fucking lying, smoke-blowing ISP shills make me sick.
itt: when you don't have an argument, invoke the name of your hated enemy
So let me ask you. Would you have to wait on something such as appendicitus or gall surgery? Or is that lower priority? I imagine sometimes doctors can misdiagnose for gastritis and in that period you can be waiting and burst.
In America I got treated immediately.
Nice FUD.
> Waaaa I came all the way here from leddit and they aren't buying my snowflake propaganda.
>Soros shill
*Tips MAGAdora*
>you won't have access to a lot os sites at all that you use now
>charged for stuff that's free now
>you'll be spied on
>data sold
Are you just spouting as many buzzwords as you can? NN is only 3-years-old. There is so much hyperbole around this shit it's unreal.
Weve already taken consumer action against ISPs for throttling and blocking content. Not only do you not need Net Neutrality for that but the companies that are pushing Net Neutrality (Facebook, Google, Netflix) are responsible for selling your information.
Your disinformation game is weak.
[spoiler]git gud[/spoiler]
You lying piece of shit ISP shills wrote the book on FUD. Blow your smoke up your ass, shill.
the idiot is an offboarder, what a shock
>Well, I want an Internet completely controlled by the people.
Wanna know how I know you're a soyboy that doesn't work
See
t. lying paid shill desperately shoveling the shit as fast as possible
t. lying, smoke-blowing, paid shill
> Everyone who disagrees with my prefabricated rant is a paid shill.
Get out. You've must had realized already that Sup Forums is not your average commie board. We talk about technology here not distopic commie propaganda.
Samefag pls
>charged for stuff that's free now
I hate this fucking meme so much. I can only imagine it's a bunch of retarded kids who have only been paying for their internet for the last 6 months. When net neutrality was implemented, ISPs didn't just tank the full cost of it. They push it onto the customer. All net neutrality did was allow services like netflix to distribute the cost of their service amongst all internet users while appearing like the service on costs $10 a month.
>Turning NN into a partisan issue
Shill alert
This argument should be about the telecoms, not net neutrality.
Taking control of the internet from the government should be a universally agreed upon opinion. Instead, we have to live in fear of these government created monopolies fucking everyone over.
Businesses should not be allowed to operate like this. This is as far from capitalism as you can get.
I actually do read the local news. Competitive bids done with a transparent process. Policies prohibiting bribery are in place and enforced. Maybe you're mistaking policies you don't agree with for corruption. It's two different things.
That is nice... I'm Portuguese, we actually have a center-left socialist party in power, in coalition with the commies and the left bloc. Contrary to Canada, we have a lot corruption in this country, but I think it's a lot less than it was 10 years ago. There's been a budget huge deficit reduction to 2.1% in the last two years since the left came to power, having much better economic and social policy results than the previous liberal-conservative right wing government had with austerity measures. There is a lot corruption in this country, but I think it's a lot less than it was 10 years ago.
Our healthcare isn't 100% 'socialist' or state sponsored too, it's also alright here most of the time if you don't have a serious problem, I remember some years ago I spend 3 hours waiting in the emergency service with a serious problem in the inner ear, it wasn't nothing serious, but fuck... There are some problems with a shortage of medical personal, mostly in the surgery department in both public and private healthcare facilities. Things like cancer treatments and surgeries costs are covered by the social security.
I've been called both commie and a 'liberal shill' when I start to discuss this thing with them in the internet lol, I know they've been almost indoctrinated by the media in the past to reject the slightest notions of collectivist thinking, but I just can't understand why currently the Americans still think having a state sponsored healthcare system is just opening the door to full communism and gulags. Well, at least at lest the ones I've met personally living here were pretty receptive to the idea...
> I'm from P.I.G.S.
Easy when you can count on germoney to back you. No wonder britbongs were so desperate to work free to keep your failed country from failing.
>Even big cities in America have been getting Google Fiber.
user... It was canceled.
Keynesian economics only works for a while portugalbro. Lets see how long it lasts.
I'm from Brazil. Center-left socialist party killed our country economy with the same policies and rampart corruption. Like Portugal it was all fun and prosperity until the system collapsed.
Also the previous chairman of our telco regulatory agency was clearly being planted and paid by Telefónica/Vivo.
>companies run copper/fibre/cable all over
>lets just take that away from them
>who maintains it
>how much do you pay for it
>why should x IP get access to y's cable
>how much does x pay y for access
>why should x maintain it for y
>who sets the pricing
That's what the old Marxists thought. That companies would turn into monopolies under capitalism and then be nationalised and that's how you get socialism and communism. Really what happens is that industries just get regulated and taxed.
We've already paid 60% of the total IMF bailout of 2011. germoney's should have tasted their own medicine for all I care.
i believe in social democracy, and for time being, as long they don't have people who get in bed with big business like the previous governments did, i think it's going for the better for the time being
I'd rather lose it completely than have it fall into the hands of the average idiot.
Wut?
But net neutrality just means everything stays as it is right now.
>i believe in social democracy, and for time being, as long they don't have people who get in bed with big business like the previous governments did, i think it's going for the better for the time being
Just warning you. You description was exactly like Brazil circa 2008. And look what happened to us now.
>population density
I call bullshi,t even towns with less than 10 000 people are getting fiber in Norway.
> Norway has the same geographic dimensions as the US. Trust me I'm a communist.
Russia has better Internet than USA.
...
Have fun with moloch
slatestarcodex.com
Even if no regulation was good (it isn't, see above) what you end up doing by dogmatically insisting on bringing it down is that you only tear down those that don't have backing by special interest behind them to protect it (why net neutrality specifically? why not the regulations that conveniently puts hurdles to new players in that sector?). In practice that just makes you indistinguishable from a corporate shill and no-one likes those.
Unless you think Russia is only Moscow (fail at geography again) you are a liar. Less than half of Russian population has access to the internet.
No one likes socialists either.
>Leftist brings up moloch
Why do they project this hard?
Here's your solution:
Government owns the fiber but contracts management out to ISPs. No additional regulation necessary.
>slatestarcodex
I agree with your point user, but don't do this.
Yes, sorry about that it's a bit long winded. It's just a prisoners dilemma, I would link to wikipedia but that is long winded too, and less poetic. Coordination is not free.