Tesla is burning through cash at a rate of $8,000 per minute

>leftlanenews.com/tesla-is-burning-through-cash-at-a-rate-of-8000-per-minute-98955.html

Apple acquires Tesla and Tim buttfucking Musk to submission incoming.

Other urls found in this thread:

eia.gov/electricity/state/
eia.gov/electricity/state/westvirginia/
eia.gov/electricity/state/florida/
eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=105&t=3
iec.ch/about/brochures/pdf/technology/transmission.pdf
twitter.com/SFWRedditVideos

Nobody cares about the bottom line anymore, it's all about share value.
And I'm not saying it's a good thing.

When were Tesla be without hippies throwing subsidies at them?

:s/Tesla/Tesla, ford chrysler and GM/

>Tesla is burning through taxpayer cash at a rate of $8,000 per minute
ftfy famalam

I don't give a fuck if he even burns 6 million jews, I want electric cars.

you just shilled this crap on Sup Forums

yet another fucking pay for hire whore spamming every fucking board with this shit

Running out of money ?

No problem!
Just release a new product and ask for pre-orders so that you can keep your company going.

Meanwhile Ford sells an F series truck every minute of every day.

They all are garbage and a result of government fucking around
The regulations to make a car kill competition, like with ISPs

...

This proves that Sup Forums has destroyed Sup Forums as a whole.

Why?

Because they get the copy-paste threads before Sup Forums does?
I'm sure Sup Forums got it first but I don't go there.

Is Sup Forums even relevant anymore?

Not since rules 1&2 were removed.

If they manage to pull the rocket thing out they will change that negative 8k per minute to 100k and I'm not even one of those redditor teslafags.
The reason I'm saying this is because this fucker will bring the private sector to something that was government only since the beginning.

Also this Why every single time some retard makes a thread on Sup Forums he thinks he needs to spread it on Sup Forums /k/ Sup Forums /lgbt/ /o/ even fucking /d/ and any other retarded fucking board they can find?

In their quest to rid the world of jewery, they themselves became the jews

this
>profitability
what is this the 20th century

I HATE STANDARD SAFETY FEATURES THAT SAVE LIVES AND FUEL EMISSION STANDARDS THAT SAVE THE ENVIRONMENT

FUCK RULES THEY'RE FOR PLEBS

Elon Musk is changing the world which is why VC funding flows to him as if from a champagne pyramid at a black tie affair.

shhhhhh

why

God I hope he finally gets exposed as the fraud he is.

Too big to fail. Government will save it. Then leftists will curse capitalism instead of corporativism.

why would you care if he did

I could grow that facial hair when I was 11.

>not driving an MR 80s car with no airbags and a straight piped exhaust
Oops wr/o/ng board

>plebs
Lol gamerfags

I'm not that guy but they're simply better dude.

- Less noisy: Yes some people like the sound but in a big city it's just annoying.

- Much more efficient power to kinetic energy conversion: Electric motors are really efficient at converting energy to movement. We can burn all the gas/diesel at a power plant to generate electricity with more efficiency instead of burning them to move cars.

- It moves pollution away from cities: It just does.

- It breaks the status quo in the car market: Really, I don't want 4-5 companies to effectively eliminate the competition. New alternatives will bring the prices down.

>He didn't get rekt by Amber Heard
I was looking forward to it, can't believe the succubus failed.
It's not that he's actually smart, he probably still loves Talullah and he'll marry her for a third time kek.

Private companies launching rockets into orbit has been a thing long before spacex.

>We can burn all the gas/diesel at a power plant to generate electricity with more efficiency instead of burning them to move cars
No we can't, especially after all the energy lost in the power lines and various transformers along the way.

>- It breaks the status quo in the car market: Really, I don't want 4-5 companies to effectively eliminate the competition. New alternatives will bring the prices down.

I agree with the rest but Tesla just proved that building cars is hard and newcomers have no place in the industry.

I also think there is still plenty competition between the major manufacturers.
Although it is something politicians need to keep a close eye on.

There is also a huge advantage of having just a handful of manufacturers: the various brands can all share the same engine designs so it's much cheaper to switch to something completely new like electric.

Not him but post a calculation if you want to argue.

Dude, they say the limit of efficiency in internal combustion engines is 37% (I think this includes expected losses from the engine itself along with fundamental limit from PV diagram, but I'm not sure). You don't have to use an internal combustion engine in a power plant, you can get higher than this. And assuming losses are around 10%, power plants may look much more appealing.

Obviously you are still reducing the pollution in the city.

>There is also a huge advantage of having just a handful of manufacturers: the various brands can all share the same engine designs so it's much cheaper to switch to something completely new like electric.
This is not an advantage.

Let me explain with an example. In semiconductor business everyone had their own foundries at the beginning, but then someone (TSMC) started offering this service to everyone so a lot of semiconductor companies turned to fabless semiconductor companies because it was easier and cheaper. So the barrier of entry (billion dollar investment for a foundry) was lowered.

Car market needs a similar thing, designing cars does not mean manufacturing engines. Independently sourced parts may prove cheaper in the end. Companies don't need to merge with each other, there just needs to be more business relationships between them. But the business practice of "let's buy all our competition" is killing it. It's bad for us, good for bigger companies.

You don't know what you are talking about. Car engines built atm are very efficient and really not that far from power plants at all. The losses due to transmission and transformation are massive and absolutely do not account for the rather unspectacular differences in efficiency.

The real argument is that you move the environmental problem away from everyone's car.

Internal combustion engines and steam/gas turbines are both inefficient as fuck. We need to dam the rivers back up. Fuck Atlantic Salmon.

I try really hard not to make baseless claims and I tried to base my arguments on assumptions with wider margins. But how do you say "cars are as efficient as power plants"? What do you base this on?

Even if there's like 10% difference between converting chemical energy to kinetic energy and chemical to electric to kinetic; and the equivalent power requirement at the car (including energy delivery) is the same for gas and electric, doesn't the electric cars look better because of all the other advantages?

Also one additional thing is that we are not really using our cars at the most efficient operating point, because most of the cars need to match the speed of the tires (except CVT is better in maintaining higher efficiency)

I agree it would be awesome if everybody could build cars using standardized components.
But that's not likely to happen.

My point was the switch to electric is made easier by only having a handful of manufacturers.
All of them btw are heavily investing in electric cars.

You are forgetting about transmission from the plant to your plug. It goes:

Plant -> Transformation -> Transmission -> Transformation -> Transmission into car -> Loading up battery -> Powering motor

All of this is inefficient. Roughly this goes 45% -> 98% -> 94% -> 98% -> ?? -> 90% -> 90%. No idea how much energy is lost in the last part of the transmission at low voltage, it's probably less than 95%. But the product is 32.9%. By the way the combustion engine in modern cars can reach efficiencies of up to 41%. Of course, there are a lot more factors to it, but still, the higher efficiency of power plants is not an argument. Generators and engines are usually limited by the universal laws of physics, they don't really change with scale.

>Car engines built atm are very efficient

No they're not.
Most energy is lost through the (hot) exhaust.

They are really hot air generators that also convert a little bit of energy into motion.

>Generators and engines are usually limited by the universal laws of physics, they don't really change with scale.
Let's make this comparison:

>An engine that runs at its optimum output power constantly
VS
>An engine that runs at different output power levels based on user requirements

I think the constant optimum output power one would be more effective. Engines do scale, fundamental limit comes from thermodynamics, it's just that power plants can operate at their optimum point most of the time.

But we're basically talking from our butts now. This discussion is meaningless without data.

the same is accurate about any fossil fuel electric plant.

>Generators and engines are usually limited by the universal laws of physics, they don't really change with scale.

It does change with scale.

Energy is lost in the form of heat.
Small things have more surface area compared to volume, so they lose more heat/energy.

btw: you also have to consider that electric cars recover a lot of energy when breaking.
This energy is also lost in IC only vehicles (but not in hybrids)

>Small things have more surface area compared to volume, so they lose more heat/energy.
This is a very good point, even changing the header shape affects the efficiency of a car, which was one of the reasons why hemispherical headers were designed.

Unless they use the excess heat.

For example to heat homes, as some natural gas power plants do.
Or to heat greenhouses as some coal power plants do.

this is the same retard that lucked into big money through a virtual currency/payment system before cryptocurrency was a thing at the top of the .com bubble and shit-talked artificial intelligence research(ers) not realizing AI is the future of cyber warfare at which the chinks and slavs are beating us and trying to convince the US that AI is evil

>this is the same retard that lucked into big money through a virtual currency/payment system
To be honest Paypal filled a very important gap for its time.

True but non-Americans don't understand since they all had decent electronic payment systems at the time.

>his is inefficient. Roughly this goes 45% -> 98% -> 94% -> 98% -> ?? -> 90% -> 90%. No idea how much energy is lost in the last part of the transmission at low voltage, it's probably less than 95%. But the product is 32.9%. By the way the combustion engine in modern cars can reach efficiencies of up to 41%. Of course, there are a lot more factors to it, but still, the higher efficiency of power pla


What about all the inefficiencies of moving liquid fuel around and refining it until it can be made useful and then transporting it to gasoline stations ?

Besides we will likely move towards a future with no gas powered cars, but we don't have an alternative to electricity (only how we produce it)
So its not like we are building a brand new electrical grid just for electric cars, it already exists and will continue to exist long after ICE cars have died out.

>I agree with the rest but Tesla just proved that building cars is hard and newcomers have no place in the industry.

Having had the misery of talking to some Tesla engineers, I can chime in on this. We make parts for cars and they wanted to make some in our Austin, Texas facility. And basically their engineers are brilliant...at textbooks and nowhere else. They are completely worthless in a manufactory setting. Their knowledge comes entirely from texts and not real life. Worse, they lack the "true grit" it takes to build and maintain anything in a factory setting. Elon is hiring based entirely on college GPA.

If he hired a maintenance staff only half as competent as ours, all his problems would evaporate overnight.

Okay Muhammed

But I like your butt. Can we talk more about it?

>I agree it would be awesome if everybody could build cars using standardized components.But that's not likely to happen.

This already happens. The borg-warner T5 is a fast example. This transmission is used in many cars like the Nissan Pathfinder and the Ford Mustang.

When you parts and work on your own, the possibilities are endless. You can customize any car part to go with any car part. You can take a $1000 craigslist find and do whatever traits you eant for your car, with higher than manufactory(handbuilt) quality, all for the cost of a new car. The real reason why this doesn't work us because the bank will not give you a car loan on this. Also

Hiring experienced people is hard.

Most of them have solid jobs so unless a competitor goes bankrupt you have to do a lot of convincing to make them resign and work for you instead.

What's left is fresh out of college guys who know fuck all what to do and some losers who got fired probably for good reasons.

And even if he could somehow find experienced engineers.
They'll still have to form teams that work well together, which can take years.

But doesn't Jim Keller work for Tesla?
For Musk to getting someone as legendary as that should be able to find more qualified people.

>higher than manufactory(handbuilt) quality, all for the cost of a new car.

Bull shit.

Labor costs will be through the roof.
And no, if you do it yourself it won't be "free" either because you could have sold your work to someone else, you need to charge yourself a reasonable hourly wage to make a fair comparison.

I'm afraid no.

As far as I've heard from few people I met Tesla is not really a good place to work at.

I'm saying they already have all the engineering talent they need. They have *only* engineering talent and that's their problem.

>Hiring experienced people is hard.

For a no-name start-up it is. Not Tesla with his cheats-activated budget. He can afford us, he just needs to figure out he needs us.

I'm talking about the thousands and thousands of people ding the actual work.
Not a few management suits.

You can't just build a factory, hire some Millennials, and expect it to shit out decently build cars.

>You don't know what you are talking about. Car engines built atm are very efficient and really not that far from power plants at all.
Dude.. we can check this out very easily.

eia.gov/electricity/state/
Click on a state and it will tell you how much pounds of CO2 they produce per mwh

eia.gov/electricity/state/westvirginia/ = 2,017lbs per mWh
They are second worst, but I picked them since they get the majority of their power from coal.

Florida falls somewhere in the middle of the pack
eia.gov/electricity/state/florida/ is roughly middle of the pack with 1,037lbs per mWh

Just divide the numbers by 1,000 to get the CO2 in kWh

Doing the math on a Tesla 75D AWD, it has a 239 mile EPA range.
meaning in WV it could produce ( [ 75 x 2.017] / 293 ) = 286 grams of CO2 Per mile

In Florida the math is something like this (75 x 1.037) / 239 = 147 grams of CO2 per mile


Meanwhile the US's best selling truck the F150 puts out more than 460 grams of CO2 per mile
You would have to drive a prius ( 171 grams per mile) and then you would still be more polluting than Florida

I can add more to this story so that the hacker known as Sup Forums knows more than what the fake news and reddit are saying. Long story inbound. tl;dr: Tesla's shit is all apart. It's why red-blooded patriot Elon is resorting to chinese factories for help now.

We have Engel and Nessei machines at our factory. Occasionally we need a support technician from the company to come in and help with problems. Per company policy, each time they come to our facility, I have to give them contact numbers, show them where the restrooms are, the fire alarm pull stations, yada yada. When I apologized for wasting their time and mine with that shit, they replied "Hey, I don't mind, as long as it's not Tesla."
When I ask them why they say that, they told me "when you call us, the machine is ready to be looked at. There's power, there's water, everything's hooked up and ready. At Tesla, the shit's not even built, the peices are everywhere, the electrical/water service isn't even ready, they have no idea."

Two different technicians from two completely different companies told me this on seperate occasions. There's a little insight to why they aren't filling deadlines. Because their machines are in peices and the academics are abysmally bad at building them.

Con't

But look at this box. And that's just a box.

When I was studying hydraulics at a local college, there was lecture and practical lab. In the lecture, you had to do a lot of math. In the practical, you had to build a circuit and verify pressure. The brilliant university engineers aced the math but couldn't do the practical to save their lives. My Air Force buddies and I would ace the practical but we were slow at the math. So naturally we just helped each other out and we all passed.

This tale has repeated itself many times and I figured out, an engineering team is useless in real life. But no force in heaven or hell can stop a brilliant, agile engineer and a shit-hot, salty technician who work well together.

Very few big business have figured this out. And Toyota is one of them. Elon needs to figure it out to even think of being competitive.

Remember that you lose something about 30% of your generated power moving across power lines.
So your electric car reduces CO2 by about 50% all told.
This is an extremely simplistic view though. If you move all the money from big oil into energy research, we'll have all sorts of cool shit within the decade.
But there's no money to be made from making things better anymore. In the kind of economy we're in where there isn't enough work to go around, making money involves convincing everyone to buy something, and public infrastructure is the hardest sell - just look at how everyone is mad as shit when you want to build roads with tax money and how every utility from the internet to water and electricity is treated as a moneycow as opposed to a competition. We're still innovating, but our innovations are limited by our market realities. There is no good solution, we're fucked until the chinese come in and stir shit up.

>you lose something about 30% of your generated power moving across power lines.

Stop making up bullshit.

>Transmission and distribution losses in the USA were estimated at 6.6% in 1997[22] and 6.5% in 2007.[22]

They have made an Electrical Car that can drive from 0-100 on 1.9 seconds. That is fucking impressive, and it can drive 1000 kilometers on a single charge. I get that it is expensive, but impressive nonetheless. Tesla could be on to something big, so I am sure they will be saved by the government if it's worst case scenario.

>we took their average costs over some period of time and then did a simple linear extrapolation to know exactly when they'll run out of money
That's uh, pretty bullshit

Tesla has an excellent battery and that's all. They really should have just sold battery tech but are instead using their patent to try and force themselves into the car market. This is about Tesla trying to be a Tony Stark wealthy playboy narcissist, not about innovation.

It's obvious Toyota could have made a better Tesla-type car than Tesla can if Elon would have just been satisfied selling his batteries to them for each car.

>Remember that you lose something about 30% of your generated power moving across power lines.


You keep mentioning this as if transporting and refining gasoline has no cost to it

>30% loss

eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=105&t=3
>he U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) estimates that electricity transmission and distribution losses average about 5% of the electricity that is transmitted and distributed annually in the United States.

You can check state by state or the entire US, just download the excel workbook and go to the sheet 10. Source Disposition

what battery tech ?
They are just using 18650's in their cars just like the Prius has

That's bulk at high voltage.

>Ford
>Trash

Nobody can top Apple's boxes, sorry.

That's pure high voltage transmission loss. Nothing about step up and step down transformers and the last low voltage transmission.

They have a fricking picture of the product on the box. Ever hear of minimalism?

Aaaaaaaand....what do you think we were talking about pray tell?

(do tell though, I'm super curious)

You're still wrong unless you want to argue that the EIA and the IEC are both wrong and you are right.

iec.ch/about/brochures/pdf/technology/transmission.pdf

Even if we take into account the losses, that still puts Tesla ahead of most common cars even in the most polluting state.
Things look even better for electric cars once you get out of the dirty power generating states.
Florida is no example, but even if doubled the CO2 per MWH, the tesla still comes out cleaner than a F150

>They are just using 18650's in their cars just like the Prius has

18650 is the form-factor for the battery like "CR2302" or "AA". Stop googling with no backround knowledge or else you'll just proliferate fake news.

Not an argument.
Apple's unboxing experience is the best, bar none; It defines how other companies should (and try) to make their boxes.

I'm not him, but this made me think that the powerplant is suffering the pollution burden of charging the full-electric car, plus the inefficiency of the full-electric car. So the whole point seems to be to turn the powerplant area into an overpolluting shithole to the benifit of insufferable californians in their wealthy cities when the real problem is bad city planning, overpopulation, virtueless culture and bad civil engineering.

Trading all the four-way intersections for traffic rotaries likely would have done better.

That's just a guess. Tesla reeks of "over-engineering" sometimes.

>plus the inefficiency of the full-electric car.
How, I have showed the math that it pollutes less.

"filling up" a 75kwh telsa will only cost you (based on avg us kwh cost) ~$8 and you will be able to drive 239 miles on that.
that 8 bucks gets you a whole 3.2 gallons based on average prices


> So the whole point seems to be to turn the powerplant area into an overpolluting shithole
These powerplants existed long before electric cars and will continue to exist for many more years.
For the time being we cannot avoid having them, so they are not a problem that was born from electric cars.


>Trading all the four-way intersections for traffic rotaries likely would have done better.
This benefits all cars, since you need the most amount of energy to accelerate vs keeping a constant speed.

I agree with your point about bad city planning very much so, some dense cities are trying to get their acts together but there are loads of other places that just don't care. Its sprawl everywhere.

That will only change one Tesla on one line

>Apple acquires Tesla
keep dreaming iToddler

>inb4 Elon literally shoves a Falcon 9 up Tim Cocks ass

Tesla didn't invent electric cars

>How, I have showed the math that it pollutes less.
You showed that it pollutes less than a locally-polluting ICE engine. I meant that the powerplant is polluting more around itself because the full-EV. It seems full-EV was never meant to help pollution, just move it out of the cities for the wealthy.

It's our culture and behavioral health that's broken, not physics to Elon's demise.

>what is a hobby

It's all Lithium at the end of the day. Battery tech is knowing how to store all of it without making it turn into a runaway fire.

Are you retarded?

But he's right.

>creating real value
muh change the world

>ford
They tried to turn the bailout down

Dude, here are some points

- Power plants pollute, true. But with some few sub bullets
a) There are sources other than fossil fuels
b) Power plants are more efficient at converting chemical energy into electricity/movement
c) Power plants can filter out stuff much better than your catalytic converter

- If the small engines we use everyday are so efficient and awesome, why aren't we producing our electricity locally? To make the cities livable right? It's not about the rich people, it's just about people. Move the pollution to designated "****tting" streets and let no one go near it while making sure it is polluting the least amount.

- How is polluting less not helping with pollution? That's really weird gymnastics, 360 turn and walk away.

did someone actually think this was clever? what kind of fucking moron doesnt know this?

My point was lost in all the crosstalk.

The point is of all the do-able measures to reduce pollution, why is full-EV the only one getting all this absurd effort? Most of what EV does is move pollution. We weren't even talking about lithium mining/shipping yet.

The technology for full-EV isn't there. We would need an entirely new battery material. Existing matrials have to be charged too slowly, you can only go so far, you can only put so many in a car. "they're solving/have solved that!". Great. But it is obviously fishy how all the materials for hygrogen power exist, all the materials for traffic rotaries exist. All the methods for raising behavioral health exist.

We're not unmindful, gulliable baby-boomers. Why only EV? Why only the most difficult or impossible solution.

>did someone actually think this was clever? what kind of fucking moron doesnt know this?

Baby-boomers.

It's not like that's his money.

it moves the pollution to a producer that can be buttressed with wind power, solar power, and a myriad of other sources to continually improve the energy/pollution ratio, theoretically to zero the day when we go 100% renewable. The gas internal combustion engine is pretty much fixed, and will always be. Hydrogen power is shit because all it really is is higher-energy concentrated gasoline that doesn't produce pollutants, but has literally no infrastructure and will require billions of dollars in distribution and production to be remotely feasible.

We're hitting the limits of the internal combustion engine, and the electric motor seems to be a compelling alternative, with the added bonus of piggybacking off of one of the most established utilities in America.

*if* there is a breakthrough in battery physics.

Yes it will require billions to use hydrogen, rotaries and behavioral health. It will require some kind of new battery material to use full-EV.

N U C L E A R fission reactors boiling water to spin a turbine hooked up to an electromagnet are what we need.