Poetterware

What do you guys think about systemd? Do you like your software functional and modular, or do you prefer a big bloated blob of buggy bullshit?

Other urls found in this thread:

jdebp.eu/FGA/run-scripts-and-service-units-side-by-side.html
phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Linspire-Is-Back-2018
blogs.gnome.org/uraeus/2017/09/19/launching-pipewire/
pastebin.com/EsR0mgLv
reddit.com/r/linux/comments/4gnz7i/lets_talk_about_the_gentle_push/
pastebin.com/2RzXsCH2
without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Debian_Stretch
twitter.com/NSFWRedditGif

Posting a list of good distros without it
Devuan (Comes with sysvinit by default)
Debian (you can replace the included systemd with sysvinit)
GuixSD (Made by GNU project. unique GNU Shepherd init)
Slackware (sysvinit)
Parabola (Has OpenRC option)
Gentoo (Is the distro that came up with OpenRC)
Artix (Uses OpenRC)
Antix (sysvinit I think)
Void (runit)

Very useful init. Had it in use before most of you did.

Counterpoint to yoir tone: Have you seen how shit scripts were? Watchdog daemons? Log rotators & logging daemons? Instantiation of services by user accounts?
Or how even the whole toolchain needed to boot looked?

I'm not preferring that shit to systemd.

(checked)

I'm using systemd on all my systemsd (serverd and desktopd) and I'm loving it.

Embrace it, you'll be fine.

>Have you seen how shit scripts were
I still cry at night thinking about the molasses we had in place before. Millennials can't be helped

>muh shitty scripts
Only valid when compared to syvinit.
jdebp.eu/FGA/run-scripts-and-service-units-side-by-side.html

That's a common Poettering tactic. To promote your garbage, find the worst possible thing in the world to compare it to, and completely ignore all other options that exist.
He did the same thing with PulseAudio, comparing it to OSS when Linux had dropped OSS for ALSA several years prior.

>That's a common Poettering tactic. To promote your garbage, find the worst possible thing in the world to compare it to, and completely ignore all other options that exist.
>He did the same thing with PulseAudio, comparing it to OSS when Linux had dropped OSS for ALSA several years prior.
poetterfags gonna poetter man
shit's cancer
I'd be more than ok with them if they kept it to their containment distro (Fedora), but fags gotta cancer it up to other distros (via the Gnome hard dep shit and other political cuntery).
Should be lined up against the wall for the freedom they're taking away, I say

>poetterfags gonna poetter man
>shit's cancer
Indeed
>I'd be more than ok with them if they kept it to their containment distro (Fedora), but fags gotta cancer it up to other distros (via the Gnome hard dep shit and other political cuntery).
Yeah that's the thing. I'd be perfectly fine with whatever the corporate enterprise side of GNU/Linux came up with, because at the end of the day, it's their choice, but I don't particularly like how this got pushed outside of that.
People on Sup Forums like to talk about "containment boards" or "containment threads". To me, Fedora/RHEL/CentOS should be "containment distros".
>Should be lined up against the wall for the freedom they're taking away, I say
ehh..
Look, I dislike Poettering as much as the next guy, but that's a bit too far. It's not like we don't have options to get away from it.

>poettering

He is hot. /jee/ is full of fags who want to sit on his dick.

Good thread.

Good post.

Ok, as one of those fags you mention

I totally agree! I want him fuck me real hard.

Just stay away from my computer, please

Poetterware is the embodiment of Red Hat's dreams and objectives. Which are surely not related with the common good and a concern for conceptual simplicity.

nah mang gotta go full genocide
/tardposting
however the fact that the three root mainstream distros (debian, rh, suse) are systemd-by-default is not a good sign.
You can still sorta get away without systemd on Debian, but little by little, more and more tools are going to start degrading when in a systemd-less environment. Debian w/ FDE takes 30-45sec to shut down due to some timeout fuckup, and you can bet "muh FDE 40sec timeout on sysvinit" is going to be a low-priority bug. Systemd and Freedesktop friends providing a constant stream of new bugs further worsens the dev capacity.
Yeah, if I have to be realistic, I'm not too optimistic for the near future. It really starts feeling more Windows-y. Wayland's not helping the matter, but at least it hasn't been shoved down our throats yet.

Are you implying sysvinit was the only other option? Fuck you.

>That's a common Poettering tactic. To promote your garbage, find the worst possible thing in the world to compare it to, and completely ignore all other options that exist.
>He did the same thing with PulseAudio, comparing it to OSS when Linux had dropped OSS for ALSA several years prior.
This.

moar cute lennart.
we may not want him to mess with our systems, but we would love him to violate our holes.

well I'm not gay but...

>looks like pale lesbian
>fanbois want him to pack their fudge
proof potterfags got no taste

yes you are.
come to the dark side.

Sup Forums's init systems:

1. GNU/Shepherd
2. sysvinit-core (+ openrc)
3. Runit

OP doesn't understand modular, systemd is modular, there are two components that are bound, actual init and journald, all the rest are optional.

As for buggy, given the amount of code they are writing, basically everything you need outside of the kernel for a functional base system, the bugs are few.

That's not to say systemd is some pinnacle of great design, it will be replaced within 10 years, likely by some of the many contributors working on systemd, this is typically how new better ideas are born.

The reason systemd has become the de facto standard is because it's better than what came before, not because it's some perfect piece of software.

Add sinit + daemontools-encore to that list.

>SystemD
>Wayland
>Snap packages
2018 the year of windows inspired Linux distros?

>not to say systemd is some pinnacle of great design, it will be replaced within 10 years
god i hope so
monoculture/vendor lock in in the base system is a huge liability

>>SystemD
>>Snap packages
heh

All this post is shit. Pulseaudio was the pile of shit shoved on everybody's mouth and is now being replaced, after all it broke and the chaos it made, now you are saying igonna be the same with systemd? Fuck that.

You might be on to something there. Even Linspire recently came back from the dead.
phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Linspire-Is-Back-2018

>Pulseaudio was the pile of shit shoved on everybody's mouth
obviously
> and is now being replaced
pinch me I must be dreaming
hopefully by something less shite than PA
got a name for the replacement?

Pluseaudio replaced???

learn to use search engines m8
apparently called "pipewire"; brace yourself, it's a redhat project

> Only valid when compared to syvinit.
> jdebp.eu/FGA/run-scripts-and-service-units-side-by-side.html
And this is supposed to show what exactly...? That you can do short shitty scripts?

> To promote your garbage, find the worst possible thing in the world to compare it to
No, he generally discusses these as far as I can tell.

You, on the other hand, seem to think flawed crap from the past had it all solved and people are just so insane to all switch to this new "broken" thing that somehow almost everyone adopts even for servers. That is fucking silly.

>it's a redhat project
fugg

blogs.gnome.org/uraeus/2017/09/19/launching-pipewire/

> after all it broke and the chaos it made,
You must be using Ubuntu, I heard multiple times that it was broken there.

Never really was much broken on Gentoo and the chaos was almost nonexistent apart from some period of migration from KDE/Gnome/Enlighenment's own sound servers to PA.

I don't use all of it but the per application volume control and being able to route sound between inputs / outputs as I choose as well as the diagnostics has been useful. Fuck plain ALSA or OSS3/4.

>The original reason it was created was that we realized that as desktop applications would be moving towards primarly being shipped as containerized Flatpaks we would need something for video similar to what PulseAudio was doing for Audio.
>Flatpaks
REEEEE. Fuck these all dependency included shit technologies.

>SystemD
>Wayland
>Snap packages

Please explain what these technologies has to do with Windows

systemd is standardised low level base system plumbing, if this is 'Windows' then all the BSD's and Unix'es are 'Windows', because they all have their own standard base systems.

Wayland is a different solution to X, offering better rendering and security, it has nothing to do with Windows.

Snap/flatpak is a perfect solution for software which isn't handled by your distro packagers, this would be proprietary code (uurk!), development versions you want to try side by side with stable versions, niche software that none of the distro packagers are willing to pick up. What it replaces are things like unofficial repos, and this is better since unlike those packages, Snap/flatpak come with sandboxing.

Why you Gentoo fags hate anything new being developed is beyond me, you should go to FreeBSD/OpenBSD, nothing ever happens there.

>And this is supposed to show what exactly...? That you can do short shitty scripts?
That the meme of scripts being shitty and long is only true for sysvinit, and that there are many other options that don't have this problem.

Dropping guide to work with pure ALSA pastebin.com/EsR0mgLv

We need to share more configs like this.

> Gnome
I should definitely expect THAT to be more stable, sane and simple with no breakages whatsoever, given GNOME's history.

Not that I mind people trying to replace PA, but my money is on the incumbent being better for years at least.

oh god the first results are a gnome blog propaganda piece, a "it's like PA, but for video!" (gee, encouraging) and wayland
*shiver* I don't want to imagine how the cartoon villains will fuck this up again

>You, on the other hand, seem to think flawed crap from the past had it all solved and people are just so insane to all switch to this new "broken" thing that somehow almost everyone adopts even for servers. That is fucking silly.
strawmen and appeal to majority
majority that wasn't achieved through meritocracy, but through microsoft-level of "ethical" tactics
fuckin "gentle push" nazis

shut up freedesktop shill
your misdirections are transparent here

>I should definitely expect THAT to be more stable, sane and simple with no breakages whatsoever, given GNOME's history.
iknorite?
hope they leave an escape hatch for the sad fucks that don't want to deal with the new mess

I include all sysvunit descendants and the completely unflexible compiled inits available even one year after systemd came out in "shitty".

As well as all the poorly designed more declarative inits that mostly were fortunately mostly killed by systemd.

Maybe someone has learned and is doing something better now, but I haven't seen anything widely deployed being better for the "general" use case (as opposed to more specialized stuff like targeting embedded or containers) than systemd even at this point.

When technical arguments are labeled 'misdirections', you know you are talking to a gentoo fag.

You people are like the radical muslims of the Linux world.

> majority that wasn't achieved through meritocracy, but through microsoft-level of "ethical" tactics
Absolute bullshit, everyone had and still have the choice to not use either systemd or PA. In most distros it'll be easier to get rid of it than python or glibc.

There are quite a lot of distros that don't feature either, though it seems to me 90%+ exist more because someone was butthurt over whatever philosophy than them having hit issues in production.
Unsurprisingly most don't care and just use what works.

They simply won and continue winning (or at least tying by the small margin that an encumbent can be worse to find continued use).

when technical arguments are used to misdirect from the very real political/ecosystem issues, somebody has to call you "gentle push" nazis out

I wouldn't mind if he died tbqh senpai

>what is debian "choose default init" controversy

> you know you are talking to a gentoo fag
No, you're talking to Sup Forums.

Remember when everybody suspected Intel ME was a threat? Well I call systemD, pulseaudio and at least avahi a threat. They are wrapper after wrapper after wrapper, they are known to break things and discourage new users, but also they are known botnet like systemd having a google DNS resolver incorporated ad Avahi's function is to being discovered on the network.

This stops here.

"put against the wall" jihadist here
to be a bit more precise, no sense in any harm happening to the lads, they most likely (hopefully) don't realize the long-term negative consequences of their actions
I just wish that their influence on the sector could somehow be stopped. Sadly it's probably their corporate overlords that are puppeteering them. Get rid of Poettering, RH will find the next proto-Hitler to take his place. He's merely a useful idiot

Flatpaks and snaps are what .exes are to windows. The aur is the perfect solution to distros not shipping your programs. The community driven approach is what makes gnu/linux great and the aur logically follows this principle.

Devs versions are almost always compiled from source. So that argument is void.

The only thing that flatpaks are good for is for proprietary code, and thus flatpaks are automatically bad.

>Yes, I like to install the same dependency 25 times on my system, thank you!

All of these programs attempt to solve valid problems.

The problem is that they introduce other problems while barely solving the original ones.

Nothing that matters, I imagine, seeing how you can easily do Gentoo or Alpine or whatever the fuck else with very little issues.

Again, this shit is less deeply a dependency than python, bash, glibc or whatever.

The dichotomy between minimalism and the GNU project DOESNT EXIST, and that is why I support the GPL and the KISS principle.

MINIMALISM IS THE WAY

>shit is less deeply a dependency than python, bash, glibc
diff is if I don't run python-dependent tools, python won't execute on my system
and bash, glibc don't have the same "quality software" reputation as systemd

>very real political/ecosystem issues,

LOL, what are these political/ecosystem issues ? Will you actually make a single coherent argument ONCE in this discussion ?

>somebody has to call you "gentle push" nazis out

People are using software I don't like, they are nazis. You fucking SJW's are everywhere, now other peoples choice of software is oppression, this fucking world needs to burn...

>this fucking world needs to burn
hah umad

> They are wrapper after wrapper after wrapper
Typically an indication that the originals were shit and broken as fuck but couldn't outright be replaced for ecosystem and legacy reasons.

> they are known to break things and discourage new users
Every program ever except that one button thing for retards on Android.

> they are known botnet like systemd having a google DNS resolver
Deceptive wording. systemd-resolved -wow, I wonder what that binary might do when involved even before looking at the manpage- has a google dns as the default fallback if none other is found in the configuration file.

you're not making any sense in what you say, although your meme image does make meme-sense
I'm confused

Nice try fag, but is the other way around.

reddit.com/r/linux/comments/4gnz7i/lets_talk_about_the_gentle_push/
>Hey now, the OP kindly requested to keep this about software in general and not focus on systemd.
>Oh wait, you are the OP. Couldn't you have kept up the pretense of neutrality for at least an hour?
poettershills, when will they learn

>architecture astronaut dont real, and if it is, is cuz old stuff was shit
>every program is just as buggy as systemd
>leaking data to google DNS by default is not indicative of incompetence or malice
poettershill pls go

I can understand someone liking the GNU tools over minimalist tools like busybox, but why would you call the GNU project minimal? emacs is minimal?

my stereo upmix cfg
pastebin.com/2RzXsCH2

pure ALSA just werks.

> diff is if I don't run python-dependent tools, python won't execute on my system
Same for pulseaudio or systemd? Of course in practice it depends a lot on what choices your distro maintainers made.

> glibc don't have the same "quality software" reputation as systemd
It's worse and more invasive too (in the sense that people who want to get rid of it often need MASSIVE sets of patches ).

The difference seems mostly with how things get reputation. People focusing a lot on that one thing they heard about, ignoring comparable issues elsewhere.

This is what I am talking, thanks!

>Same for pulseaudio or systemd
nope, if you haven't done questionable stuff, you're running systemd - like it or not.
if you want sound, get bent - you get the whole PA shitbasket, bugs and all
>It's worse
personal experience? fewer (none actually, iirc) user-facing issues from it than from PA, systemd and a few other freedesktop projects

>What do you guys think about systemd?
It's an NSA plant.

You're an NSA plant

Correct, that's why you should install windows.

ur mums vajoojoo is an NSA plant

>you should go to FreeBSD/OpenBSD, nothing ever happens there.
>thinks openssh, libressl, jails, zfs, hammer, w^x, karl, bcrypt, pledge, pf, tmux, sudo, are """nothing"""
no wonder Linux is a ghetto

Daily reminder that Red Hat is backed by the Illuminati. The end result of all this is that any Red Hat projects - Gnome, GTK, PulseAudio, SystemD - are built to contain backdoors to let them into your systems.

>systemd is standardised low level base system plumbing
This is why I hate it. Nobody needed or asked for that garbage. Especially not from an "init system."

it all makes sense now

redhat confirmed for kkk illuminati nazis

Is sysvinit the one with init.d and rc.d? I miss the days of Slackware and Debian 3.x when writing, editing scripts and adding/removing services. With systemd I don't know where to begin. Runit is nice and simple, I really like void for that.

Yes sysvinit is what you remember. Slackware still uses it, Devuan is Debian with it, and Debian itself allows you to replace systemd with it, so if you want the old system, those are your best options.

zfs, bcrypt, sudo, tmux, what the fuck do these have to do with FreeBSD/OpenBSD ? They are separate applications/systems which originated elsewhere, and they are available on Linux.

Desperate much ?

Only projects of interest handled by OpenBSD are openssh and libressl, both are forks so they didn't originate in OpenBSD either.

Again nothing fucking happens in FreeBSD/OpenBSD, unless you mean forking a project every ten years.

Fuck, they are so slow they haven't even patched Meltdown yet, even DragonflyBSD with ONE developer has managed that.

Didn't OpenBSD have it patched this whole time, which explains why performance on that has always been slower than other OSes?

>Especially not from an "init system."

systemd is not a init system, it's standardised low level plumbing, which INCLUDES init, every OS has their own standard set of base system tools, Solaris, Windows, OSX, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NETBSD, etc et al.

systemd is an attempt and standardising this base system this across Linux distros as well, which was obviously well recieved given the huge uptake it has had, every major and most minor distros have adopted it, because it makes perfect sense to standardise the lower level parts of the Linux ecosystem.

That doesn't mean you HAVE TO use systemd, if you don't like it use a distro that supports alternatives, and eventually something will come along to replace systemd, because it's far from a perfect solution.

No, they are wide open for the Meltdown exploit, currently scrambling to produce patches, same goes for FreeBSD.

That Linux is more secure than OpenBSD is not really a surprise, but that Windows and DragonflyBSD currently are is fucking hilarious.

That statement was put in quotes for a reason you poettering shill.

>every OS has their own standard set of base system tools, Solaris, Windows, OSX, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NETBSD, etc et al.
This is meaningless nonsense and buzzwords. Why doesn't the GNU coreutils count as a "standard set of base system tools?" systemd doesn't actually bring anything new to the table.

>eventually something will come along to replace systemd
Openrc and runit are both far better.

>GNU coreutils count as a "standard set of base system tools?"

Who said they're not ? Of course they are, just like systemd is these days.

>systemd doesn't actually bring anything new to the table.

Why are you lying ? Just being able to have full boot analysis and ACTUALLY WORKING process supervision is HUGE, whatever eventually replaces systemd must provide these features.

>Openrc and runit are both far better.

Depending on your needs, sure, but same goes for systemd, no surprise that with all the features of systemd, most users find it superior.

>Who said they're not ? Of course they are, just like systemd is these days.
Oh so systemd is just reinventing the wheel for absolutely no reason? Wonderful.

>Just being able to have full boot analysis and ACTUALLY WORKING process supervision is HUGE
Openrc did this first.

>no surprise that with all the features of systemd, most users find it superior
Most users don't touch the init system at all. It was pushed by red hat marketers and distros adopted it because they're lazy. Popularity is not a measure of quality.

FUCKING THIS!
If popularity was a measure of quality, then Windows is clearly the best thing in the universe and everyone should just switch over to that.
right?

>most users find it superior
"most users"?
"Most users" don't give a flying fuck about "base system tools" init systems or anything else of that nature.

>Oh so systemd is just reinventing the wheel for absolutely no reason? Wonderful.

Are you high ? systemd USES the GNU coreutils.

>Openrc did this first.

Bullshit, ad-hoc failure-prone solutions for handling orphaned processes and re-parenting.

>It was pushed by red hat marketers and distros adopted it because they're lazy.

No, it was adopted because it was a superior solution to maintaining buggy init scripts, most distros said they would support the latter if someone stepped up and maintained them, BUT SURPRISE, NO ONE DID!

>Popularity is not a measure of quality.

Neither is impopularity, and I agree that 99% of end users don't give a shit what init system they use because it won't affect them.

However distro developers ARE technically verse and ARE affected by them, and they by a massively wide margin found systemd superior to previously existing solutions, and migrated towards it.

So while you Gentoo fags are perfectly within your right to use openrc, don't pretend that everyone else is wrong because openrc fits your particular needs better.

And the sad part is that when something better than systemd comes along, we'll have systemd fanboys acting like you Gentoo fags claiming that systemd is the ONE TRUE SOLUTION, and the whole shit starts over again, so fucking tired of this.

>Are you high ? systemd USES the GNU coreutils.
That's not my point. If the GNU coreutils are a standard set of base system tools, why do we need even more? systemd doesn't actually provide anything useful; only annoyances like journald.

>Bullshit, ad-hoc failure-prone solutions for handling orphaned processes and re-parenting.
Elaborate.

>they would support the latter if someone stepped up and maintained them, BUT SURPRISE, NO ONE DID!
Except for the fact that Gentoo devs did and haven maintained openrc for years.

>However distro developers ARE technically verse and ARE affected by them, and they by a massively wide margin found systemd superior to previously existing solutions, and migrated towards it.
Systemd isn't technically superior in any meaningful way. It's just that many distros were strongarmed into it thanks to things like GNOME dropping consolekit support.

>And the sad part is that when something better than systemd comes along
I can't wait till this happens.

Wasted trips.

/ t h r e a d
t
h
r
e
a
d

Windows does not have this problem tbqh famalam

All these non-developers who think they know shit about init systems. If you don't like systemd, write your own kernel.

I haven't heard any credible kernel developers say another init system is overall better than systemd.

What are the steps to swap systemd out in Debian? I started using it for everything to get off windongs and am still in the shallow end of the pool

>If you don't like systemd, write your own kernel.

Like I said. Actual kernel developers consensus is systemd is the best init system currently available. If you think you know better than them, write your own kernel.

>write your own kernel

without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Debian_Stretch

Devuan, the most credible systemd-less distro, is actually pretty laughable. They literally don't have a single kernel developer among them. They're 'veteran UNIX admins'. lol.