Classical

let's be serious for a second here, he wasn't actually a very good composer

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I've just recently started exploring his music. Can't really form an opinion as of now.

Better than your favorite probably

...

>he wasn't actually a very good composer
If you want to really get serious, you should look at his scores. Then you'll see he's a fantastic composer.

He might not have cared to please pleb ears, but he was a very high tier composer, knew his shit, and wrote some sensational music, if you have open ears.

>he may not have cared about how his music sounded but he was a very high tier composer

>he may not have cared about how his films looked but he was a very high tier director

>he may not have cared about how his books read but he was a very high tier writer

>he may not have cared about how his food tasted but he was a very high tier chef

>he may not have cared about how his patients' lives but he was a very high tier surgeon

>he may not have cared about how his buildings maintained structural integrity but he was a very high tier architect

>he may not have cared about how his army was doing but he was a very high tier general

>look at the scores faggot

Holy Jesus.

My God! What has sound got to do with music!

Any of yall into Douglas Lilburn? What's his best piece?

youtube.com/watch?v=ORuJ8npS7-I

Beethoven ruined Western art music.

It's shocking how all the things that slowly wrung the life out of it were pioneered by him, or at the very least synthesized and forcefully, desperately hurled at the Western ear until it succumbed to a kind of Stockholm syndrome. This constantly expanding compendium of aural garbage slowly became a meme (in the real sense of the word), it gradually started stifling music as the West knew it and eventually replaced it altogether.

Composers like Chopin or Alkan, and later Debussy or Scriabin were powerless to turn the tides against the onslaught of Beethovenian shit that was operating autonomously as early as the 1830s, a real self-replicating idea, a real meme.

Beethoven (thankfully) died in 1827, Western art music was dead in less than 100 years. Mashing monkey, jittering cretin, pestilential hillbilly. Fuck Beethoven.

My favorite composer > Your favorite composer

agreed

>Composers like Chopin or Alkan, and later Debussy or Scriabin
Those composers suck though. Scriabin probably metaphorically blew Beethoven's formal-obsessed dick given how Scriabin's music is filled to the brim with the driest formalism in music, period.
>Muh dark and edgy themes xD
>Muh mystic chord xD
>I am le god *tips fedora*

Scriabin is the original avant-teen music. Beethoven is shit but you clearly have no taste either if you think Scriabin was a composer worth mentioning.

...

true

>listening wrong

Nice copypasta.
>that one guy who absolutely hates Beethoven
Beethoven [underrated]

"the fuck is going on here 2 keys at once baka"

You're confusing atypical tonal language with formalism.

Nice concession though.

>Beethoven's formal-obsessed dick

That's all I wanted to hear.

Good, it's what Ludwigoloids deserve.

I disagree senpai
Name something wrong with his string quartets

Kodaly > Bartok

...

to rephrase: he didn't care about anyone's aesthetics other than his own. A truly uncompromising composer.

post some good kodaly. What forms did he focus on?

You say that Chopin was "trying to save music" from Beethoven (as if, I hate it, therefore it's destroying this medium) but even then:

"The end of the 12th Étude alludes to Beethoven's last piano sonata, written in the same key—a piece Chopin is known to have greatly admired (compare bars 77–81 in the Étude to bars 150–152 in the first movement (also ending in C major) of Beethoven's sonata."

" [...] suffice to say that Chopin admired [Beethoven's Sonata No. 32] enough to imitate both the beginning and end of the first movement (in the opening of his B-flat Minor sonata, and in the end of the Revolutionary etude respectively)."


And if that wasn't enough:
"... exploration shows that the Fantaisie-Impromptu and Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata ("Quasi una fantasia") are related."

" [...] the Fantaisie-Impromptu draws many of its harmonic and tonal elements from Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata, which is also in C-sharp minor, in particular, the third movement. Two measures after the melody begins, an abrupt run has the same notes, one octave higher, as the cadenza in movement 3 (Presto agitato) of that work. The climax on a six-four chord is similar in both pieces. Also, the Fantaisie-Impromptu's middle part and the second movement of the Moonlight Sonata are in D-flat major. The first and third movements are in C-sharp minor."

don't get me wrong, i hate poly as much as anyone else, but seriously martinu is underrated as fuck

Atypical tonal language has nothing to do with his over-adherence to a dry sonata form. He is one of the biggest form wankers, and just because you happen to like him you are ignoring this due to your bias.

Face it, your taste is just as bad as the Thovenplebs.

>ITT retards trying to talk about music
sad stuff to read t b h f a m, looks at these hot comments

>Bartok isn't a good composer
>Beethoven ruined Western art music.
>Debussy suck
>and of course a lot of great "arguments"

the underaged retards that come to this board really grind my gears
you people are pathetic

Debussy does suck. Debussy, Strauss(both Richard and Johan), Franz Scubert, Robert Schumann, Chopin, Lizst were all awful, generic, souless composers who made music for people who don't listen to classical music very often.
Deal with it.

hahahahahaha
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
those retards man, I tell you

How's music theory 101 going? In our "atonal phase," are we?

come back when you are over 20

How euphoric and enlightened.

>over-adherence to a dry sonata form

Wouldn't that be formulaic rather than formalist?

In my mind:

Formulaic: pouring several ideas in the same preexisting mold.

Formalist: having no clue what you want to do or how you want it to sound and chewing a theme/several motifs (usually boring ones to begin with) to death by tiresome "development" and "variation" hoping something interesting will happen eventually and that academia will claim this process is anything but a travesty.

By the way I think sonatas 1-4 and 10 are poop.

Rare Scriabin:

youtube.com/watch?v=DsB4woyXoXE

Etudes are pointless and gay. Chopin's sonatas are possible his worst compositions. As if that wasn't enough, he hated the Fantaisie-Impromptu so much he wanted the manuscript destroyed.

Rare Chopin:

youtube.com/watch?v=2Fkky_mF1Z0

>implying beethoven wouldn't have (further) soiled himself at 2:03

Beethoven is the greatest of all time and nothing can change this fact.

>too many people like it so it is bad

chill out people. I was just joking. Actually i like most of those composers i wrote on that list.
Just wanted to trigger that dude :D

He didn't hated the fantaisie-impromptu, it was "Composed for the Baroness d'Este by Frédéric Chopin"

You are selectively discarding compositions to suit your points.
>rare chopin
>posts a famous nocturne
Op. 27 No.2 is better, btw.

I'm done arguing with this troglodyte.

Reminder that Scriabin's sonatas are the epitome of formalism.

Which sonatas do you recommend to get into Scriabin?

Nice post.

Who would you say is the best then?

youtube.com/watch?v=z9cnyfET1lE

Best piece of 20th century Western music - AXIOMATIC TRUTH.

fuuuuuuuuck youuuu

lol

Only good ones are 5 and 8

Avant teen tier

that's not no. 2

You can say his music isnt pleasing, but saying he is a bad composer implies way more than just the way it sounds.

Yuja a qt

forgot link youtube.com/watch?v=nHO4Ucw9zL4

>avant teen
>crystal clear voice leading
>natural flowing phrasing
>gradual volume changes
>clearly delimited motifs
>booming bass
>graceful and tempered upper register
>extremely emotional
>no filler
>avant teen

Honestly Scriabin was a more interesting person (read: insane) than he was a composer
Theres a reason most people talk about him rather than his music and its because once you get past the idiosyncratic tonal language there is literally nothing interesting about him and the dynamics of his music is just LOUD quiet LOUD quiet. Dude couldnt write worth shit for anything that wasnt a piano (all his symphonies save ecstasy were travesties) just like Chopin, and his orchestration was fucking awful.
Truly the most over-rated of the supposed "under-rated" composers. Literally the only Russian worth a shit is Stravinsky. Face it, Russia is a country of good performers and not good composers.

Thanks for the recs

btw Beethoven is shit as well and basically the most underrated composers are probably American and English composers. French are just a bunch of pretentious twats who secretly just aped German music, and people like Sibelius led to minimalism and we all know how that garbage turned out. Bartok and Janacek are alright too but both were huge Debussyfags and you can sniff it in their twatty music.

By the early/mid 1920's the influence of Debussy ceases to be so apparent in Bartók

AHAHAHA American composers. Please...The only thing american can do is jingles for the new McDonalds campaign.

dude you are so right!!! ahahaha LMAO

Charles Ives deserves to be mentioned more often just for wrecking Wagner.

of course he is! I've heard professional orchestral players say this, it must be true.

>Beethoven is shit
opinion discarded. Have a pleasant day.

Probably why I only really listen to later Bartok
Further proof that Ives, Carter, Gould, Bloch, Ruggles, Copland, and Adams are underrated

Yes, it is certainly far more interesting than his shit music, that is for sure

cool memes m'man

Unfortunately he was also a huge Thovenfag as he frequently got wet for the 5th symphony and Hammerklavier

rrrrrrrrrRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEE

>This much underage retards
>This much pointless arguments
>No one has even posted the links
/classical/ is dead.
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why is liking beethoven such a big deal to people like you? i dont fucking get it, do you just have a need to feel special and underground?

Holy shit this thread has to be one of the worst /classical/ threads I've ever fucking seen

You guys are fucking retarded please commit suicide

Don't reply to bait like that, it only makes the thread quality go down. He feels a need for attention, that's why he baits.

You're a giant fucking faggot pham

You're completely ignorant of the greatest composers from Russia yet you keep spouting horseshit like you know anything.

You clearly lack musical knowledge as well so please just eat a bullet

this

his string quartets are honestly my favorite pieces of music. my next favorite pieces of music are the bach cello suites, eric satic gymnopedies, ravel's piano pieces, and debussy's piano pieces. What are you gonna do about it, punk?

Bump
youtube.com/watch?v=Z94_p4Y43Tc

classical a few months ago

>mmmmmyeah mmmmmmmmmyeah fuck my asshole bach myyyyyeah
>hey guys does anyone have a link to *irrelevant shitty recording from the triassic*
>DAE want to blow *composer*
>OFFICIAL COMPOSER TIER LIST XD

classical now

>discussion about music

You're welcome. Have some high energy Scriabin:

youtube.com/watch?v=xDTgj_69JKA

What the fuck are you even talking about?
>dae
Back 2 Redshit.

What the fuck?
Sure there's more discussion now but what's the point if it's fucking cancer.
I honestly prefer people memeing about composers and meme recordings than the literal cancer this thread is.

Shitting on "avant teen" composers:

>please grip my cock harder, internet stranger

Shitting on Beethoven:

>FUCKING CANCER REEEE

>shitposting this hard
Just go back to redshit and perhaps educate yourself before spreading cancer around, will you?

>Bach is the greatest of all time and nothing can change this fact.
I can do it too!

[not true, by the way]
he was clearly one of the best composers of the 20th century.

Brahms piano concerti > Mozart piano concerti

dat No .2

youtube.com/watch?v=NKX0ef1TZWA

garbage thread. fucking tryhards

>people taking all this bait

>tfw English composers are most of my favorites
am I the only one

>Fantaisie-Impromptu
listening right now. it's OK. nothing special at all, as with much of Chopin for me.


I'm very lost on people hating Beethoven. I agree that his music is a bit fluffy with "development" sounding a lot like a prog rock album. Boring.

But his themes, and the best part of his pieces are often completely mindblowing in their depth and intellect. Astoundingly so.

I still prefer Mozart personally. But hating on Beethoven is odd.


Chopin's best works are his Preludes and Etudes. Prove me wrong. Everything else is non-distinct. The Nocturnes are boring and don't have any standout features.

Funny. Scriabin invented his own unique style of tonality, making it his own. We can see this kind of thing with many other composers in the 20th century. Notably Debussy and Messiaen. I think the triad of Scriabin, Debussy, and Messiaen is interesting in that they all developed their own idiosyncratic takes on harmony which can be instantly recognizable for them, and which seem to have little to do with the "rules" of music theory, particularly with Scriabin. Also, they weren't just atonal bores. They actually bent the rules in ways that are listenable and interesting.

I would extend this to Bartok and Ravel but I think the above three had a more focused take on harmony.

I think of Bartok as kind of like the Autechre of late Romantic music. He doesn't quite fit the serialism of Schoenberg, Stockhausen, and Boulez, etc.

But he doesn't at all fit with Debussy, Mahler.

And furthermore, I wouldn't even say he fits with Stravinsky, who was ultimately sort of like the master genius of the time period who synthesized everything into a perfectly working whole - but whose music does sometimes seem more like a precursor to minimalism. A series of vignettes more than a formal piece - as many here are deriding.

Bartok was a continuation of the lineage from Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven. As others have said, he was formal. His music is certainly not tonal in the sense of Mozart or even Debussy. But it isn't quite atonal, is it?

My problem with Bartok is that I find his harmonic aesthetic really kind of unappealing.

The only times I've really, really enjoyed Bartok - as much of the work of Autechre - was while blazed out of my mind listening to his quartets. It was during those times I saw the details and patterns of his music. Unlike other atonal formalists, like Xenakis, who use form as their main mode of expression - Bartok's music is not like a machine. It is very much classical and structural, and I think standard forms of analysis which are generally applied to classical and romatic era music would work on it.

That said, I don't particularly enjoy listening to it. But to say it is not good art is patently wrong as far as I'm concerned.

Though to be honest I do find some of his works rather bizarrely overrated by some people. I can't get into the orchestral/celesta stuff whatsoever. The string quartets are far more interesting for me. Maybe I've been listening to bad recordings.

Also, I think Bartok wrote a book about his tonal system if you want to read it, it might shed some light if you're interested. I think if anything he's underrated.

The Beethoven hate is just bait, pay no mind to it.
Also, wouldn't Chopin's best works include the Ballades? Why/Why not?

I meant to say that Xenakis music is like a machine, and is NOT formal in the same sense as Mozart/Bach. But that it is very much organized and can be considered highly formal in a sense...

Whereas Bartok was before the mathematical conception of musical structure, and his music is still following in the footsteps of Mozart and Bach, etc, who see pitch events and notelength as corresponding to a particular system of thinking about musical composition.

I need to listen to them. I don't know if it's acceptable to reach judgements on things without listening to all of the pieces, but every Etude or Prelude I've heard from Chopin has had a lot more creativity. Whereas the Nocturnes always sounded like slow versions of things Beethoven was doing but minus any of the dazzling intellect and depth. Actually, I think I'm starting to understand what Chopin was trying to do. He was actually a pretty cool composer, ayy?

I'll check out the Ballades.

digitalcommons.cedarville.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1026&context=musicalofferings

Interesting writing about Bartok as an ethnomusicologist

Yeah, I agree. But I still like the Nocturnes for what they are.

youtube.com/watch?v=3QH8MstNkKg
That is a fairly good recording of the ballades if you need a starting point. The ballades are masterpieces and you should indeed listen to them.

>it-it-it's just bait g-guys
>literally no counterarguments
>eh-he-he just ignore it

>like slow versions of things Beethoven was doing but minus any of the dazzling intellect and depth.

Closest thing to blasphemy when it comes to Western music. Well done.

Also:

>the dazzling intellect and depth.

l

On second thought, this MIGHT be sophisticated bait.

>to dazzle
>To confuse the sight of by means of excessive brightness
>To render incapable of thinking clearly; to overwhelm with showiness or brilliance

Sums up Beethoven's music pretty well. An assortment of harmonic whoopty-doos with nothing underneath.

i seem to recall you crying that you'd never come back after getting blown out, assburgers-chan ;)

I seem to recall those cello parts in Beethoven's 9th as evocative of a pig breaking through the bottom of its trough and guzzling the shit-ridden mud underneath.

I tried writing a response but I think you have a point.

Beethoven and Bach both occupy the same space in my mind. They're kind of like super geniuses which are very rare. They understood music so well that they could pretty much do anything they wanted with it in ways that we can only imagine, and most composers can only really imagine.

You could say that Bach's music is just endless nonsense, but actually maybe we were both missing the point about Beethoven. He's just the logical continuation from Bach -> Mozart -> _____.

He expanded the language as much as Mozart did from Bach, and maybe a bit more.

If anything I'm realizing right now just how much of a massive figure Beethoven really is and how much I was missing the point about what he was doing.

i want to get more into english composers

i really like John Bull's work for the harpsichord, could you recommend me any other english composers?

kek. i'm actually glad you are back. it is nice to have at least one antagonizing person around if only for humor's sake and you are a pretty funny person.

i wouldn't say that Bartok doesn't fit at all with Debussy. Debussy was a clear inspiration for him. you can make some pretty clear comparisons between Pelleas and Bluebeard.

in my mind i group him with Enescu and Janacek.

Debussy WAS one of his biggest influences, but he does end up getting further away from it as it gets to his later compositions.

He's right though. At least in regards to Lizst, R. Schumann, Schubert, J. Strauss, and Debussy. He might be mistaken about Chopin and R. Strauss, but still...

Between sonatafags and symphonyfags, who are the worst?

Get into him through his etudes.

What techniques would be known by a violinist who's only completed Suzuki book 1? What's off limits to write, what's safe to assume she knows or should be able to learn easily? (Currently she's on the other side of the planet, so I can't easily ask her.)

I've written a simple composition, about 1.5 ~ 2 minutes long with a rather simple rhythm, for violin and piano. But I don't even know if slurs are on the table yet. And what about the fourth finger?

I think the reason a lot of people find Scriabin to be polarizing is that he has this kind of fluff and hype surrounding him due to his own egocentric personality and over exaggerated and hyper romantic mysticism. Combine that with his transcendentalism esque writings like I Am God and it is easy to expect his music to be this huge deal and I don't think it quite matches up to it. As Copland said, his stiff adherence to the sonata form in combination with the daring and idiosyncratic tonal language seems a bizarre fit, and he probably would have been better off if he experimented more with form.

As for Beethoven being bad... I don't care for his symphonies, but I saw his Missa Solemnis live and the Sanctus and Agnus dei brought me to tears. Such sensitive and beautiful music there. Plus, he was a pretty big influence on the composers I generally enjoy so I can't hate him at all.