Who had the best Empire?

Who had the best Empire?

Dutch or Portuguese

>Both focused on trade
>Both had fun beating up the Spaniards


However I think that in the long run the Dutch did far better, having not collapse into poverty and nothingness like the Portuguese.


Thoughts?

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=nUvClCFU-Qw
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glorious_Revolution
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Les_Francs_entre_400_et_440.svg
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rampjaar
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batavian_Republic
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williamite_War_in_Ireland
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Anglo-Dutch_War
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Anglo-Dutch_War
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Paris_(1783)#Treaty_with_the_Dutch_Republic
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sint_Eustatius
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normans
youtube.com/watch?v=WjcNjph-rWE
youtube.com/watch?v=dJh66L7IDfc
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_by_past_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita
twitter.com/NSFWRedditVideo

>Both had fun beating up the Spaniards
Yeah, trying to get them out of your own land kek

Do you see a Spanish flag here or in the Netherlands ?

No, but it's funny how say "beating them" when they fucked both of you multiple times

Portugal was way more successful and relevant.

All the Dutch had in the end was money, but you had Brazil-chan. A child of your own is way more important than material gains, Portugal was a wonderful Empire, you can make the whole world jealous.

Shame it fell to indernashunal gommunism.

>more than 60% of surinameans speak dutch

>multiple
i can only think of one time

they have half child

suriname, indonesia and south afric

Well there are couple of things.

>The Dutch flag isn't horrendous
>The Dutch are white, the Portuguese are not (the North of Portugal is not the whole country)
>The Dutch are much more advanced in economy and as society


>Portugal has
>Weather
>Food


Just like any other South American shithole.

Well, the Dutch Empire started later (while we were getting jewed out by Spain and out of the way), ended earlier, and was smaller, and had worse terrain.

It wasn't a pioneer empire, and only sailed previously-sailed seas, for the most part. Never managed to conquer much, and just jewed their ways in, whereas ours was the very first, and the one that braved into the unknown. Their strategy to spam ship building is a bit exploitive, and we did more with less, combat-wise.

I'd say as an Empire, the Portuguese Empire was better.

They did reap the benefits of it a lot better in the end, though, and are generally much better at managing everything, and the effects are still present today.

Dutch Organisation > Portuguese Organisation
Portuguese Bravery > Dutch Bravery

Also, we took better advantage of our cuisine opportunities, whereas you sold everything, we kept it and experimented with it, so

Portuguese Cuisine > Dutch Cuisine

so we have that going for us, if anything.

youtube.com/watch?v=nUvClCFU-Qw
"Den Coninck van Hispaengien heb ick altijt gheeert" ("I have always honoured the King of Spain").
Portugal is no longer my best friend, paises bajos españoles is now my new best friend.

Didn't the Portoguese Empire collapse because of the earthquake on Lisbon?

You really dropped the ball on your flag

"De koning van Hispanje heb ik altijd geëerd." Is how it is spelled.

Good try though, knew exactly what you meant!

portuguese of course

I think that's the original spelling from the 1500's

The portuguese one was better

>we did more with less, combat wise
We conquered all of britain though
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glorious_Revolution

How come Britain can can be known for never becoming conquered when everyone of note seems to invade then?

Which is definitely most impressive, but you did do it with like 200 ships all Zerg rushing their shores. The shit we pulled was always with 10-20 ships at most, and a bunch of them with just 5. Still, I don't think we ever faced such an enemy, that's p cool.

Occupation is not conquering. To conquer you need to put a regent in place.

>Occupation is not conquering. To conquer you need to put a regent in place.

I uh... William the Conquerer.

Fucking goddamn

conqueror

good night, piss on my grave, 6am

What about him? I don't know much about English history. Also, the concept of conquering is a very case-by-case thing.

You won't find any Portuguese Historian saying that Napoleon conquered Portugal, since the government relocated to Brazil to prevent them from being able to nominate a regent, but most French I've met here claim they had Portugal, when they just disbanded the army (which wasn't being paid for 30 years), and put up some posters in some of our cities.

It was just a very slow and long invasion, but we were not conquered.

i thought he was crowned in england

Well, the Vikings, Romans and French as well as Dutch all managed to do that at some time.

You know the Dutch Caribbean is richer than east European countries.

The Netherlands conquered England, although the English deny it was an invasion. It was done with an army twice the size of the Spanish armada.

Before the Netherlands existed the people here also conquered France as Salian franks.

That's p sweet, what about life quality? I'm thinking of moving there temporarily

The Netherlands was also the richest country of the world for 300 years. Until it declined into what it is today.
As far as I know only Italy has done equally well. Italy was the richest before us.

The UK, USA and Switzerland have been the richest as well, but for quite short periods of time.

>declined
I wouldn't exactly call it that. The Netherlands is still an amazing country overall.

It's a bit like a poorer Spain except everyone can find a job.
Just a slower pace of life on a Caribbean island, living off tourism.

>It's a bit like a poorer Spain except everyone can find a job.
Just like here, kek.

>the people here
Kek, no. They came from across the Rhine, roughly the Franken area, and simply settled in modern day Belgium because the Romans allowed them to move there in exchange for military service. After that they conquered Gaul because Rome wasn't around anymore.

They were about as "Dutch" as the Turks in Rotterdam.

>everyone can find a job
Uh...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Les_Francs_entre_400_et_440.svg

The Brits are masters as rewriting history.
Just look at how they turned waterloo into the most important battle of the Napoleon wars as completely Omitted Prussia's role in it.

More than Spain, at least.

You didn't conquer us, parliament invited your King to be our King. Which he did, and ignored the Netherlands for the rest of his reign

So what? The Dutch rebels also invited Napoleon. Yet Napoleon conquered us. Just because someone wrote a letter it doesn't mean the country is suddenly theirs.

Because fact is that Netherlands attacked because the UK and France and (half of) Germany had attacked us a few years before it. So we took out the English crown to avoid another attack by three countries. It was a preemptive strike.

>your King
0/10 apply yourself

>In 1688, when faced with an English king who again seemed to side with the French, the Dutch mobilised their full resources in order to invade Britain and overthrow the Catholic Stuart Dynasty (the Glorious Revolution) - a decision which involved a major gamble whose magnitude is not fully appreciated since it paid off. It was considered worthwhile, since, after the Rampjaar, the possibility of a Catholic, and French-dominated, Britain was regarded as a mortal threat to the Netherlands.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rampjaar

Because we just managed to fend off an invasion by three European powers we decided to follow it up.

>Dutch rebels
>governing body

Yes these two are identical, well done

I don't care what you call your meme kings

>the Patriot party revolted against the authoritarian regime of stadtholder William V[5] but were quickly struck down through the intervention of William's brother-in-law Frederick William II of Prussia in June 1787. Most Patriots went into exile in France, while Holland's own "Ancien Régime" strengthened its grip on Dutch government chiefly through the Orangist Grand Pensionary Laurens Pieter van de Spiegel.

>Only two years later, the French Revolution began, which embraced many of the political ideas that the Patriots had espoused in their own revolt.[6] The Patriots enthusiastically supported the Revolution, and when the French revolutionary armies started to spread that revolution, the Patriots joined in, hoping to liberate their own country from its authoritarian yoke.
>Aided by the fact that a substantial proportion of the Dutch population looked favorably upon the French incursion, and often considered it a liberation
>The new Republic enjoyed widespread support from the Dutch population and was the product of a genuine popular revolution
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batavian_Republic

No
>posted 7 hours ago

It was sort of important towards it, though.

Ever since Alcácer Quibir it's been a barrage of bad luck every 50 years. The earthquake and the French invasions were probably the biggest ones.

Suriname maybe.

There was never a country called Indonesia under dutch rule and it has nothing to do with us.

Afrikaners only have the language that ties them to us. Otherwise they're just a melting pot of people from different european countries and even asian and negroes who can be considered conservative and religious and I suppose african in some way.

We were even restoring Africa.

Fuck, Luanda was a great place until we left. Fucking niggers and commies.

Dutch mulattas > Brazilian women

Anything with Portuguese blood is automatically hideous.

Portugal hands down.

Portugal was the first European nation to enter into the 'Age of Discovery' with the capture and colonisation of Ceuta, Africa in 1415. Thats 38 years before the last remnants of the Ancient World in the Eastern Roman Empire fell to the Turks. Portugal was likewise the last European nation to give up its colonial vestiges in 2002 with Macau; thats a year after 9/11 and two years before Facebook. The amount of historical breadth between the two and the impact the Portuguese have made in Japan, India, China, South America, Africa and The Middle East is astounding. BTW: Tempura batter was originally Portuguese.

You mean

>both would be spanish today if it wasn't for the french

I bet neither or you ever thanked the french for the 30 years war and Rocroi.

The portuguese one was objectively better, by the way. The portuguese were explorers, conquerors and traders. The dutch were bakers and glorified pirates predating on empires weakened by others.

>both would be spanish today if it wasn't for the french
How did France contribute to our independence? If anything they fought at your side a bunch of times.

I'm genuinely curious, I don't know that part of your history very well.

Portuguese one was greatest, but Dutch one more longliving

>but Dutch one more longliving
Not as an Empire.

The Netherlands did benefit more from it than we did, mostly because we believed that Africa could be fixed.

It's part of your history and all Europe. Check the international scene when did you got your independence.

But for a tl;dr your war of independence started as just another theater of a pan-european war that the Habsburgs lost exclusively due to the french.

Sorry for the horrible english by the way, I'm a bit tired from the gym

Not that guy but
>The Franco-Spanish War (1635–1659) was a military conflict that was the result of French involvement in the Thirty Years' War. After the German allies of Sweden were forced to seek terms with the Holy Roman Empire, the first French minister, Cardinal Richelieu, declared war on Spain because French territory was surrounded by Habsburg territories. The conflict was a continuation of the aims of the War of the Mantuan Succession (1628–31) in which France invaded northern Italy to take possession of territory claimed by the Spanish Habsburgs. The Franco-Spanish War ended in 1659 with the Treaty of the Pyrenees.

are you stupid?
indonesia is literally short for indo-netherlands

Should be added that the 30 years war evolved from a local conflict into an international one thanks to Richelieu who funded protestant scandinavian expeditions into the empire (first Denmark, then Sweden) even before entering the conflict himself.

Seriously, the dude was awesome.

>The Netherlands conquered England
top lel when will this meme end? >The Vikings
They never conqured the whole of England and ended up losing almost all of it in a decade
Who was it who put an end to the viking age? Ever heard of the battle of Stamford bridge?
>The French
The Normans weren't French they were Danes/Angles who settled in Normandy anyway they were only able to beat us because we just got out of ^^^ the war with Norway even then we would've beat them if we didn't break our shield wall (We thought that William was killed).

Ah, I knew you had shit going on in Catalunha and Andalusia, but didn't know it was a whole European thing. We get almost 0 European history for the XV to XVII and just focus on our Discoveries and Empire.

We still have colonies. Suriname became independent in the 70's. Indonesia in the late 40's.

We had Angola/Mozambique/Guinea Bissau/Timor Leste until 74, and Macau until 2002.

i lol'd

We also started in 1415.

So we opened the colonial age and closed it, more or less.

It's neither here nor there, it's just a trivia thing for the purpose of this discussion, but the Netherlands weren't the longest living empire, like it was said.

Because no non-British Entity has ever been able to assume complete control over Great Britain alone, never mind all of the British Isles.

William was invited over

Hello there Lindybeige!
>The Normans weren't French after 200 years of settling in France, adopting Christianity before Denmark had even converted, speaking French, intermarrying with French nobility and -most important of all- ruling over a French population that was barely changed by the Norman invasion
Yeah, they totally weren't French. And neither were the Angevins that came after them.

>We thought that William was killed
>We
You know the modern English identity as we know it only arose after the Hundred Years War, right?

Also
>It's not an invasion if Parliament (not even the king) asks for it
Inb4 >Muh Parliamentary Sovereignity
You mean a doctrine that was established AFTER a Dutch monarch took over? It was still king vs invader, having help from the inside matters not.

What did he say that was wrong? You've only ever been brave enough to attack us during a civil war plus we literally take your colonies bitch nigga.

Well, the Netherlands didn't exist yet in 1415. :^)

>bitch nigga.
I'm talking to a 12 year old.
Mazzol.

The whole glorious revolution was protestants vs Catholics, English wanted William because he was protestant. In Northern Ireland they worship him as their hero kek

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williamite_War_in_Ireland

>You've only ever been brave enough to attack us during a civil war
The UK took South Africa when we were occupied by France.

Plus you've lost the first anglo-Dutch war, the second anglo-dutch war, the third anglo-dutch war. You lost the USA in the fourth antlo-dutch war. You managed to fail an invasion togheter with France and half of Germany. You failed an invasion togheter with Russia.

The entire British military history is a joke. So it's not surprising we conquered you.

The retarded thing is that Saint-Martin is French territory, therefore EU law applies. This would technically mean that to import shit from Sint-Maarten to Saint-Martin, you need to pay a tariff. Also on one half of the island you can invoke EU rights and regulations, but on the other you cannot.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Anglo-Dutch_War

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Anglo-Dutch_War

(((((((didn't they win the fist one)))))
anyway I fully agree.

Consider the source. The fourth anglo Dutch war was about American independence.

>holup Normans wuz angles n shit, not French ok????

They were definitely French.

We've a shiton of different peoples, you know, and Inm not even talking about moors or nig nogs

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Paris_(1783)#Treaty_with_the_Dutch_Republic

British got what they wanted with the Dutch

The difference being that when Napoleon came over he set up his own Dynasty and system of Governance that superseded your original one.

When William Of Orange came over he was completely under the control of the parliamentarians as Britain had effectively developed into a Parliamentary Democracy after the English Civil War and the sovereignty of the English King came second to Parliment.

>The UK took South Africa when we were occupied by France.
>"took"
If I'm not mistaken, we asked them to take it to keep it out of France's hands. Because God forbid we actually get some freedom up in this bitch.

Not really, as the war was about this:

>Britain protested bitterly against the continuous trade between the United Colonies and St. Eustatius. In 1778, Lord Stormont claimed in Parliament that, "if Sint Eustatius had sunk into the sea three years before, the United Kingdom would already have dealt with George Washington". Nearly half of all American Revolutionary military supplies were obtained through St. Eustatius. Nearly all American communications to Europe first passed through the island. The trade between St. Eustatius and the United States was the main reason for the Fourth Anglo-Dutch War,1780-1784.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sint_Eustatius

>all this anglo-dutch hate
>forgetting that we were best allies against the eternal Spaniard

>Things that didn't happen
Yeah is that why 20-30% of people from PRESENT DAY Normandy have Germanic DNA?
They did adopt Christianity like all other Europeans but they didn't speak French en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normans

>You know the modern English identity as we know it only arose after the Hundred Years War, right?
Alright then William wasn't even Dutch.
Bien entonces William ni siquiera era holandés.

The rest P-P-Protect our royal family for nothing in return p-please

The only time you fought us one on one was during a civil war and we still beat you
We won the fourth one (You had France on your side then as well kek) and we only lost the others because you had France,Norway and Denmark on your side

ahem

British beat the dutch navy in every encounter, conquered their shit, forced them to give trading rights in their colonies, Netherlands completely bankrupt by the end of the war.

>""""""Dutch victory"""""""""

>invade us with France and Germany
>still lose
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rampjaar

>The English were defeated by the navy under Michiel de Ruyter in 1674, resulting in the Treaty of Westminster and eventually leading to the Glorious Revolution.

England was NEVER our ally
They always saw Portugal as their colony.
In the end we never had allies in europe, we were always alone

>We've a shiton of different peoples, you know, and Inm not even talking about moors or nig nogs
That's like saying Wales conquered Iceland in the year 900 so the Icelandic people were conquered by the British.

I mean at the time Portugal was part of the Iberian union

Let's resolve this in an objective manner.

How many Dutch Kings has England had? 1
How many English Kings has the Netherlands had? 0

After the fourth Anglo Dutch war you lost your trading supremacy permanently, and have never regain your standing since. I would say the Anglo won that one.

meme excuse, a significant part of our country invited the french over in 1795, but we're not delusional so that's still called an invasion

>we were always alone

Tbf UK helped saved Portugal during the 7yw and liberated Portugal during the peninsular war

Meant to be to

youtube.com/watch?v=WjcNjph-rWE

youtube.com/watch?v=dJh66L7IDfc

The Nehterlands was the richest country in the world from 1600 to 1830. Which is 230 years.
The UK from 1840 to 1913. Which is 73 years
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_by_past_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

>muhh empire
More like an empire of poverty.

>The difference being that when Napoleon came over he set up his own Dynasty and system of Governance that superseded your original one.

if everything stayed the same why is it called a revolution?