Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with...

>Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it’s not that simple. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?

>The war that Tolkien wrote about was a war for the fate of civilization and the future of humanity, and that’s become the template. I’m not sure that it’s a good template, though. The Tolkien model led generations of fantasy writers to produce these endless series of dark lords and their evil minions who are all very ugly and wear black clothes. But the vast majority of wars throughout history are not like that.

>'But if you’re going to write about war, and you just want to include all the cool battles and heroes killing a lot of orcs and things like that and you don’t portray [sexual violence], then there’s something fundamentally dishonest about that.

Reminder that there are adults who unironically prefer LOTR to GOT.

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Reminder that this is the man who wrote the Boltons, a family of pale vampire wannabes in all red and black who flay people for kicks while raping their way through the countryside.

This faggot doesn't know what makes a good story and gets bogged down in minutiae. I hate his fucking books.
There are real historians who chronicled real history and I'd rather read a good translation than his attempt at realfantasy.

>This faggot doesn't know what makes a good story
You mean interesting, fleshed-out and believable characters?

Because he's got that down better than Tolkien ever did.

upvoted

Reminder that there are adults who unironically believe that historical accuracy in a fictional universe that shares no history with our own is not only necessary, but is somehow more important to a fantasy novel than prose, setting, plot/story, and lore, all of which are areas where Tolkien wrote circles around Martin.

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>"I did begin a story placed about 100 years after the Downfall, but it proved both sinister and depressing. Since we are dealing with Men, it is inevitable that we should be concerned with the most regrettable feature of their nature: their quick satiety with good. So that the people of Gondor in times of peace, justice and prosperity, would become discontented and restless — while the dynasts descended from Aragorn would become just kings and governors — like Denethor or worse. I found that even so early there was an outcrop of revolutionary plots, about a centre of secret Satanistic religion; while Gondorian boys were playing at being Orcs and going around doing damage. I could have written a 'thriller' about the plot and its discovery and overthrow — but it would have been just that. Not worth doing."

>"Not worth doing."

Obese edge fag on suicide watch

I've watched this so many times, I don't care how reddit-tier it is since I may be the only person on this board who actually doesn't visit reddit.

Tolkien destroyed Martin btw.

Tolkien wrote shallow characters. Get over it

Sounds like it would have been a good book desu

Based JRRT wrecking people even from the grave.

That sounds a lot more interesting than his trilogy desu my family

Anyone who's not obsessed with hating popular things appreciates ERB. The lyrics are well-researched and pretty clever.

>ERB
euthanize yourself

You're wrong, Devin

yep

right on cue

A Satanic cult of sauron/ morgoth worshippers would be great desu

>>Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it’s not that simple. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?

jesus what an autist

>Since we are dealing with Men, it is inevitable that we should be concerned with the most regrettable feature of their nature: their quick satiety with good. So that the people of Gondor in times of peace, justice and prosperity, would become discontented and restless

Damn, he just described everything wrong with today's society

Thats because he is describing every society that has ever existed you mong

...

I'll bite. Who is the shit skin?

U wot m8?

seriously, what?[/Spoiler]

The "developed world" lives in an era of wealth, prosperity, opulence and peace unprecedented in human history.

That's why obesity is becoming an epidemic everywhere, birth rates are crashing and suicide rates are skyrocketing. Human beings don't seem to be built to survive comfort.

>implying real historians don't get bogged down in minutiae
If a historian ever presents a story and it sounds simple then they're a retard and you are a retard for liking their work

>Since we are dealing with men
Tolkien was an SJW
Called it

have some anime

ASOIAF fags always like to talk about how the story in LOTR is too generic or how it's predictable or whatever, but it's WRITTEN better than anything that fatass hack has ever written.

Tolkien has prose that GRRM couldn't dream of competing with. The worldbuilding is much better and it's better at immersing the reader in the surroundings.

ASOIAF is literally gimmick: the book. It's got the twists and the morally gray characters and the "realism" but the writing itself is shit-tier.

Tolkien is a better writer, deal with it. Writers back in the day wrote books that were practically poetry. GRRM just gives a bland description of what is happening.

I have no idea what that has to do with what I just posted. He is describing every society ever including his made up medieval society

>asking perfectly sensible questions is autism

you were really upset when Tom Bombadil didn't make it into the movie trilogy, weren't you?

I dislike it because every battle has the exact same beat and structure, they have no musical creativity.

>Tolkien
>prose

He tossed that idea a nod in the Fall of Numenor. Sauron had Ar-Pharazon convinced that Morgoth worship would give him dominion over any foe, and ran a cult devoted to Morgoth up until the island was drowned.

>writers back in the day
Oh boy we have a "back in my day' fag over here.

Why did I even bother reading that trash?

If you think those are perfectly sensible questions in the the context of LOTR you're about as clueless as this fat fuck is

You've never read his work though. Or think that
"Here's this man who helps orphans BUT HE'S ALSO A RAPIST!! LOOK HOW GRAY UHH" is good writing.

whatever faggot it's one of the few things that are true in regards to that cliche

>It's a GoTplebs get triggered episode

The beauty in which Tolkien explains sceneries and stuff in general is just higher than what GRRM is capable of.

>Writers back in the day wrote books that were practically poetry.
nice meme. Tell me about how music, movies, and women were all better than too. Remind us that even the windows were cleaner and little johnny didnt develop cancer from smoking yet

Nope, just the writing.

I have read LoTR, the Hobbit, and the Silimarilion. His characters are shallow, his plot is obvious. He isnt telling a story so much as a building a mythos. If you like that fine, more power to you. I do not enjoy that.
Wow it sure is hard being an adult isnt it.

Let's be honest here, GRRM is a talentless hack and anyone who disagrees is a certified faggot and a moron

Asoiaffags are the worst

ASOIAF readers themselves do not want morally gray characters. They are all literally jerking over "muh jun targaryen will become the gratest knigh and daenarys will be his queen and tyrion will ride a dragon and sace the day!"

Actually GRRMs prose is widely considered among the best while that is literally Tolkiens only weak point.

You don't know what you're taking about.

Whelp. Can't do anything about shit opinions other than disagree.

this fat cunt should die already.

You tell me who knows more about war: Tolkien who fought at the Battle of the Somme or GRRM who fought at the Battle of the Sizzler?

>GRRMs prose is widely considered among the best

If he'd said that between the 3rd and 4th asoiaf books it might carry some weight but after ffc and adwd it just makes him look like a bitter jelly old hack

How do i upvote this post?

I am sorry you were born if a sense of superiority despite accomplishing nothing in life. Hopefully it will tide you over until you inevitably hang yourself.

I don't think anyone would disagree that Tolkien had better prose, he was a trained linguist and had a doctorate in English

GRRM does better characters imo and though Tolkien is a master worldbuilder I prefer the world GRRM created to Tolkien's because I find it more relatable and a better reflection of our own.

>Actually GRRMs prose is widely considered among the best

kek that's funny bro

I agree with his position but his implementation is god awful trash

Agree with this, I really enjoy Tolkien but it's more for the fantasy of his world, the writing and depth of the character's are rather poor.

It's not surprising though, being an author that makes book's for children it would be silly to include more complex personalities than the basic 'good and evil'.

>I don't think anyone would disagree that Tolkien had better prose, he was a trained linguist and had a doctorate in English
apparently this retard would
> I find it more relatable and a better reflection of our own.

I read fantasy to escape reality, not to be constantly pulled back into our shitty world with reminders of how shitty people are.

"include more complex personalities than the basic 'good and evil'"

But this is not the case with Tolkien's work. I feel like most of you have read his work several years ago, and now believe the memes. Neither his characters or his mythos is directly "evil and good"

“We have come from God, and inevitably the myths woven by us, though they contain error, will also reflect a splintered fragment of the true light, the eternal truth that is with God. Indeed only by myth-making, only by becoming 'sub-creator' and inventing stories, can Man aspire to the state of perfection that he knew before the Fall. Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien

There's nothing wrong with any of those questions. Tolkien glossed over real-world effects or paid very little attention to them.

What do you think happened to the inflation rates in Laketown after Smaug's death? I hope the average fisherman likes those fish - it's all he'll be eating for a long time. If you have an answer, then you've thought more about it than Tolkien ever did.

This is coming from the guy whose idea of an ominous threat is something as generic as zombies.
Also this guy clearly has a middle school understanding of sexual violence in the middle ages. It was not as common as people think and neither was war in general.
He also has a really immature and naive philosophy on how family works because his characters value it way too fucking much for it to be a realistic portrayal of what a world like this would be.
Also Tolkein does go into some specifics of what Aragorn does after becoming King but i cant really fault GRRM for not researching that
What i hate the most about this guy though is how blisfully unware he is of how much he stole from tolkein
Jon Snow is literally a carbon fucking copy of Aragorn and the white walkers are a far more immature insert for orcs.
I get it. He wanted to make a gritty realistic period drama in a fantasy world but he has no fucking clue about anything of the time period his work is based on. Of course this could simply be written off if he admitted his shit was as unrealistic as Tolkein but GRRM is a fat fucking snob too stupid to recognize his own failure.

> I find it more relatable and a better reflection of our own.

The world Martin created doesn't even reflect actual medieval times. You're fucking kidding yourself if you find it realistic in any regard beyond I guess sex happening.

"To be caught in youth by 1914 was no less hideous an experience than in 1939 . . . by 1918 all but one of my close friends were dead."
Of the two writers, one of them knows shit about war. The other writes descriptively about a character having a bout of diarrhea.

>I am retarded
the post

>Reminder that there are adults who unironically prefer LOTR to GOT.
I am one of them

Provide some example because I cant honestly think of many. The only flawed characters were Boromir and Frodo. They did a great deal of internal struggle. Boromir ends up dead and Frodo has his entire personality raped and never recovers.

That's all fine and dandy. But GURM glosses over those things as well. For all his big talk (marketing) about portraying logistics, strategy and economy he really doesn't focus on it at all.

MODS MODS MODS

*Tips collection bowl*

I wouldnt say shallow. Shallow implies he tried to go deeper and couldnt, whereas in Tolkiens case the story never really calls for it.
You have to remember that Tolkien wrote these stories in a way that would make it more comparable to ancient epics like Beowulf or The Illiad. GRRM wrote his stories to be more comparable to days of our lives and guiding light but with swords and diarrhea instead of substance.

Smeagol, bro.

+You have no cock!!!!!1111 xDDDD
+*BRAAAAAAAAP*!!!! Ahahaha baka A FART!!! X---D
+Everyone plotting against everyone, no one can trust anyone, not even your own family, because 99% of the people are sociopaths

Pretty much any lone wolf char with a hidden past related to royalty is a carbon copy of Aragon at this stage and most people don't even realise it.

it's FANTASY. It's not supposed to model real life you fucking fat piece of shit!

I can't get into game of thrones. oh look, it's fantasy, but lets make it realiiiiiisticccc, and add lots of SEX and DRAMA

fuck off.

Jesus Christ you dumb son of a bitch. If I want minutiae and realism I'll read history.
If I read a fantasy story I want something fantastic.
Your low level of reading comprehension and intelligence seems about right for a george martin fan.

>I read fantasy to escape reality, not to be constantly pulled back into our shitty world with reminders of how shitty people are.

Sure. I'm not saying one is better than the other, I'm just saying which I personally prefer. I find the shittiness of ASOIAF's makes it a lot more worthwhile when the good guys DO triumph.

>You're fucking kidding yourself if you find it realistic in any regard beyond I guess sex happening.

I don't mean it's a literal history lesson, retard.

...

Anybody with taste is

Oh shit. I always forget he is a character and more consider him a plot device.
I never said Tolkien was bad or even intended to imply that and I straight up said he was building a mythology more than a singular story.

But most of the shittiness that happens to the protagonists makes no fucking sense, because it's all from really outlandish/retarded behaviour

>if I just presuppose God is real than God makes perfect sense!

>enjoying genre fiction
>having ANY taste

If you're interested, "The Fall of Numenor" is basically Tolkein's attempt at doing this, only before the events of LOTR instead of after it.

>le "redpilled" weebshit
kill yourself

A peaceful land, a quiet people

Denathor, Faramir, Turin, Hurin, Pretty much every elf in the Silmarilion for starters.

Sauron, Melkor and the orcs are also debatable. In chapters where you get close to the orcs (Merry & Pippin and Sam & Frodo in mordor) their society is displayed as very human. Especially the chapter where the two orcs lose Sam and Frodo and banter about it made them feel very much human.

Are you implying that people dont do outlandish/retarded things all the time?

>all these fags who have to been to /lit/ once and spout this genre fiction shit without knowing what it even means
Please lurk more

Falconcrest with Dragons, thank you for this!

/lit/ pls

Anyone who knows anything about literature knows that Tolkien had average to mediocre prose. Go claim he's a great stylist over on /lit/, but first make sure you have some band-aids for your ass.

Martin is not a stylist either. He has serviceable prose, with the occasional silver passage.

>people actually think ASOIAF is some sort of complex epic with autistic attention to detail

Nigga, try reading Romance of the Three Kingdoms, that shit'll blow your balls off.

You have to remember that he lived in a very different time from us

examples?

and a great deal many of these "retarded" decisions are deliberate and its made clear that these are the characters' tragic flaw

>By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them?

This is clearly an allegory for modern day niggers, correct? If we killed them all crime rates would drastically decrease without question, but it would be "morally incorrect" to do so.

They do, but not to the scale that the characters in the books seem to do. Take Ned for example, his whole 'TRUTH TRUTH TRUTH' attitude is so laughable because of the setting. Same with Robb's decision to marry some random girl. Same with Jon and Dany's decisions after the 3rd book.

>Denathor
By the time of the books he is supposed to be seen as out and out bad. Tragic but bad.
>Faramir
I dont remember him doing anything tolkien would consider bad
>elves in the Silmarilion
I honestly dont remember here its been a while
>Sauren ect
Gonna need a better argument for this than that some of them had aspects of their personality that was relatable.

Reminder that there were people in history that flayed people. Reminder that many units in the US military feature emblems with flayed human heads on them.

How powerful is Tom Bombadil ?

The original god created him ? How powerful is him compared to the gods and semi-gods ?