Rorschach was right in the end.
Veidt was wrong in doing what he did.
As nite owl said:"You've idealised mankind, but youve deformed it, you've mutilated it. And that's your legacy...."
Rorschach is a true conservative, no tolerance for degeneracy unlike veidt who thought killing millions was a worthy sacrifice for a flimsy ideal of "world peace".
Rorschach and Adrian has polar opposite ideologies and perfectly encapsulate the right vs. the left.
And rorschach wasted all of his effort and got disintegrated while veidts plan went off without a hitch
>"Nothing ever changes"
This movie really downplayed Adrian. He's just the typical villain.
I'm guessing you got all of this from the comic?
I agree, Rorschach was definitely correct.
World peace is both an inherently unattainable and immoral goal. Conflict is part of not only human nature but nature itself in general. Evolution comes from conflict.
The fact that Ozymandias thinks that his peace will last any longer than a generation shows just how detached and clueless he really is.
Yes I did, the comic is my favorite comic of all time honestly, I've read it three times. If Alan Moore got into a car crash near me I'd totally misery him.
This isn't mine, I saved it from a thread a few months back, but it says everything that needs to be said about Rorschach:
He's a man who's moral compass is so strong, and his sense of right and wrong so black and white, he's driven insane by it. His turning point in life is when he turned from master detective superhero into a vigilante after finding that the missing child he was looking for was raped, murdered, butchered and fed to dogs, he literally lost all faith in humanity. In the comic he talks about the kitty Genovese case, and how most people don't care about what happens to others, so long as it doesn't happen to themselves.
He feels lost in a world where we're led to believe people are good by nature, but in reality, that is not the case.
He is a person who believes that ends do not justify means, which is something I personally agree with. In the end when Adrian's plan has been executed, he is so distraught at the idea of living this lie, he is torn up than so many people had to die, that this new society will be built on the deaths of millions of innocents, that his best friend is willing to comply with such an evil world, he never would have been able to live in veidts utopia, he is a dead breed of person who values human life, the idea of living this lie and existing in this sick world is so painful for him, he practically begs to be killed and taken off this godforsaken planet.
Rorschach is introduced to us in the story as a maniac, a twisted deranged person.
But in the end he turned out to be the most good-hearted and human of all of them.
ITT strange 15 year olds who have lived sheltered lives
I tip my hat to you fine gents in this thread. Finally some intelligent fellow conservatives just like me and Rorschach.
This
>Like me and Rorschach
I don't know why but this made me spit my drink everywhere. Top kek.
I'm just imagining Alan Moore in bed and some fat fedora wearing neckbeard entering the room with a sledgehammer in his hand.
Alan Moore: Jezuz Chriust, wat thuh fook.
user: I know you've been outside this room while I was out to the local comic book store.
Alan: I swer to fook I've been ere' this whole toime
user: My Rorschach figurine always points to the right, like my ideology, Alan, I know you knocked it over when you were wandering my home.
Alan: Pleeze dunt do this, I'll rite more comics fur you, I swer.
user: You've betrayed my trust Mr. Moore, and I can't have that. (Places the massive time that is "From Hell" between his ankles and smashes them with the hammer.)
Alan: YOU CRAZY FOOKIN BASTAD!!
Lmao. Can I copy this, user?
Sure just change "time" to "tome" in the last part and you're good.
woah woah hang on, you guys aren't baiting?
>being right.
>being conservative.
pick one.
>can't provide an actual counterargument
>no no, conservatives are the dumb ones!
Well they can't be left can they? Pretty stupid post user
You know Alan Moore intended for the audience to agree with Veidt, right?
He considered Rorschach the true villain.
Why didn't Dr Manhattan just warp Rorschach to a planet far away with air and food. His wasting of power with petty human struggles was the biggest flaw in the movie.
I fucked your mom
Isn't Moore considered the Zack Snyder of comics though?
Damn. moore sounds like a retard lmao. Veidt was a egotistical genocidal fuckface on a power trip while Rorschach was up in the streets fuckin niggas up.
No, Rorschach die but win in the end
not really
Rorschach got enjoyment out of hurting people. He went after criminals because it was a good way to justify it to himself, but at the end of the day he was little more than a thug.
Veidt saw no better way to get to world peace and felt it was the only way to save mankind from itself. He made the choice that he saw as the most rational and while the cost was high, he didn't see any other way out of nuclear war
>"You've idealised mankind, but youve deformed it, you've mutilated it. And that's your legacy...."
that original dialogue was so awful Snyder a hack
In Veidt's mind (and perhaps in reality of the Watchmen universe) humanity was going to obliterate themselves anyway. Better to sacrifice a percentage and save the majority than to have the entire world die.
Rorschach believes himself judge, jury and executioner. He kills on a smaller scale, but to satisfy his own warped notion of justice and for a bit of personal satisfaction.
They're both scumbags but at least Veidt's intentions were noble. And Rorschach shows how much of a petty hardass he is by throwing it all away, even after the millions had already died
Neither is "right". That's the point, they're both extremes of their own worldveiw.
The answer is that no one has the right answer in that situation.
>The ends justifies the means
im so tired of assholes implying this
meanwhile dr manhattan dicks around the whole time checking his blog instead of using his god powers to destroy all the nukes on earth are creating a new habitable planet.
i guess these types of thoughts are to be expected from comic writers and fanboys.
>a literal autist who would launch nukes over the whole planet instead of mitigating it to select cities
>good guy
Oh but hes conservative therefore he must be the hero!
You're forgetting that for the sake of his principles, he's willing to let all of humanity die.
It sounds like you're confusing Rorschach with the Comedian.
yea, i dont think any of these underage spurgs payed attention to what they were watching.
Dr. Manhattan had to leave because he gave the west a grossly unfair advantage, without M.A.D. there could never be peace.
I'm not justifying Veidt's means. BUT since his plan already went through and everyone already died... might as well enjoy the fruits of his labor, no? No, Rorschach HAD to have the last laugh because he's a prick.
>Dr. Manhattan had to leave
a literal god getting bullied by ants
C U C K E D
U
C
K
E
D
>meanwhile dr manhattan dicks around the whole time checking his blog instead of using his god powers to destroy all the nukes on earth are creating a new habitable planet.
They bring this up in the comic. In the event of a nuclear war, even if Jon manages to destroy 99% of the nukes launched, the ones remaining would still be enough to destroy manking.
>arguing who is """"""""""""""""""""""right"""""""""""""""""""""""" in Watchmen
literally pointless
>nukes launched
why wait until they get launched?
why is jon such a stupid cuck?
how can a omnipotent being be so useless?
>World peace is both an inherently unattainable and immoral goal.
I'm gonna need both hands for this tip.
He just doesn't give a shit anymore. Nigga can travel to distant galaxies in the blink of an eye, why should he give a crap about Earth when humanity just sees him as a superweapon?
Wow Manking must be tough
No one is right.
Rorschach was designed to be everything wrong with objectivist idealogy if taken to its extreme.
Veidt is a utilitarian to the point of killing as many people as Hitler with no one else knowing, all for the sake of the rest of mankind. Not to mention, once people realize there don't seem to be aliens coming, the jig is up.
Jon is too apathetic and detatched from humanity. All he cares about is his girl.
The only objectively good character is Nite Owl, but he doesn't have any answers.
He's omnipotent, not omniscient. He doesn't know where the nukes are, despite the fact that he can see all points of time in his life simultaneously, he can only see time as it relates to his own life. The fact that there's a threat of nuclear war means that in the future he chooses not to prevent it, he knows that because he sees himself not doing it.
Jon doesn't care what happens to us anymore. He's so powerful that whether humanity is extinguished or not no longer concerns him. He proved that when he didn't stop Comedian from killing that woman.
>World peace is both an inherently unattainable and immoral goal. Conflict is part of not only human nature but nature itself in general. Evolution comes from conflict.
Oh hey Helmut von Moltke. I didn't know you were still alive.
...
it is his fault. for some stupid reason he let people use him for warfare. i guess he is just a badly written character.
>or some stupid reason he let people use him for warfare.
Back then he cared about people. The characters in Watchmen aren't static, they change over the course of the decades.
>You know Alan Moore intended for the audience to agree with Veidt, right?
Is that why he had Dr. Manhattan tell Adrian "Nothing Ever Ends" and then have Adrian look uncertain?
saved it to my atheist folder
Not that user, but maybe Moore wasn't necessarily saying 'Veidt is right', rather, one of the goals of the story is to get the audience to agree with Veidt, a position most readers would probably have difficulty maintaining if put in the situation in real life.
Hopefully that makes sense I kind of butchered it
I really feel like people wouldn't be having these stupid arguments if the movie just left that line in.
who am I kidding, Sup Forums is too dumb as a whole to get what he meant there
>People actually think Veidt plan has any chance of working for more than a few years.
The point of Jon's final line is to say that even if Veidt was "right", in the end all he has done is turned back the clock, he hasn't stopped it. One day we'll have to come face to face with the eve of armageddon again, and that time we may not avert it.
Nothing ever ends.
>Nothing ever ends
well said rust
I understand that, it doesn't have anything to do with what I was saying. Moore saying "Veidt was right" and Moore saying "I intended for the audience to agree with Veidt" are two different things, is all my point was.
I don't think Moore inteded for the audience to specficially agree with anyone, he left that up to the audience.
Though I can say he DID intend for us to not agree with Rorschach.
Who would ever agree with Adrian? It's the most stupid plan for peace ever in a movie. kill millions and blame god. what the fuck was moore's problem?
Were talking about the guy that also wrote V for Vendetta here
The only one you can totally 100% agree with is Nite Owl, because he's a good guy who wholeheartedly has faith in the justice system and plays by the rules.
The only one you can totally 100% disagree with is Comedian, because he's a cynical shitbag that gets off on the suffering of others.
Everyone else, good or evil, has some justification for their actions pitted against personality flaws that cause you to agree in part with what they do, even if you resent the character as a whole.
In the comics he genetically engineers a giant tentacle monster and teleports it into a building in new york, blaming it on aliens possibly from another dimension
Moore didn't call him the villain. Not Veidt the hero. He just thought Rorschach was insane and Veidt's plan was ultimately for the greater good.
lol that movies was autistic too
Is V for Vendetta as autistic in comic form?
Nite Owl has sex with a woman in a relationship, he's a scumbag
He had the powers of a god, but not the wisdom of one. He was still human and his arc is him becoming less of one. Become true to his new nature.
>lessons in morality by the Sup Forums crowd
You niggas are pathetic
you mean Nite Owl cucked a god therefor he is based af
well done m8, this
>so who were we suppose to identify with in neonomicon?
I like the Comedian. And you speak like a tumblrette.
>300
>Watchmen
>BvS
Why are all of Snyder's good movies based on funny books?
>funny books
Watchmen is a graphic novel (for you), shitface.
And all Snyder films have qualities.
>Rorschach was right in the end.
100%.
>, the ones remaining would still be enough to destroy manking.
No they wouldn't.
We never had enough nukes to destroy the world, even if they were used to maximize casualties instead of strategic and tactical value, let alone 1% being enough
>flimsy ideal of "world peace".
Veidt wasn't doing what he did for something as ideal as world peace. He was doing it to prevent nuclear annihilation of everything.
Watchman is set in the world where everyone is extremely close to pushing their big red buttons. Manhattan has seriously destabilized Cold war. The situation is supposed to be at near Cuban missile crisis levels of tension for a prolonged period.
Bullshit. Veidt achieved LITERAL WORLD PEACE.
The means he took were horrible, but the result was worth it.
Look it at like the Nuclear bombs on Japan.
Would you draw out the conflict, having more people die, (starvation, shooting, bombing, prison camps, etc) throughout the course of more years (which would probably make the war end in the mid 50s)
OR
Would you end the suffering by killing millions to save billions.
Rorschach, ironically (if you read the graphic novel), liked President Truman who dropped the bomb to end the war.
And yet, when a man does something similar (albeit on a larger scale) he compromises his values.
Rorschach would never have seen the world with shades of gray, but black and white. NEVER mixing, always seperate, always changing.
Dr. Manhattan was the only person who was actually right, because he already knew the outcome before it even happened.
If you kill your enemies, they win
t. Justin
but did it? I mean sure, his journals were given to a dying news center, but who would credit that source?
>thinking this was "conservative vs leftist" and not Kantian Deontology vs Mill's Utilitarianism
Get the fuck off Sup Forums for a few months and read some books, pleb.
Dr. Manhattan is a literal God. Agrees with Adrian. Makes sense.
Yep, no one will believe the word of that loon.
So?
He also put a pirate story in his comics as an allegory for HIV, who gives a fuck what that poof thinks.
This.
Remember when Alan Moore thought that Thatcher would lead to Britain becoming a fascist dystopia?
bump
>We never had enough nukes to destroy the world
The 1980s of Watchmen is also a very different place than ours. The existence of Manhattan made everyone go crazy in building nukes out of fear.
Yes and no. V isn't made out as the objective good guy. The fascist aren't as comically evil either, as the comic goes on it becomes more and more morally grey. Also the fascists beliefs and rules are very different than in the movie, it's a more realistic interpretation of a totalitarian government in the comic.
V is still pretty autistic though. Evie is a dumb blonde instead of le stronk woman.
One think I didn't like is the shoehorned in thing about clean energy.
In the comics the energy crisis was already solved, Manhattan synthesized some gas that powers everything.
Can we talk about how Adrien Veidt deliberately gave people cancer to make Dr. Manhattan hate himself? He invented a device that gives you cancer so he could give people cancer.
>having power to manipulate mass makes you GOD
>superman can fly and is hard to kill so he's GOD
Can we stop with this shit? Nothing about power makes you the Creator. God isn't just a word for being stronger than a human.
Shh the goyim must not know
Why does Alan Moore think he knows something?
fuck off with your trips. he can bend time and space through sheer will and cannot be killed
Let look at this guy
And? What does that have to do with being the source of all creation? Manhattan is the God of the new life he is creating, but of nothing else. As stated numerous times he isn't omnipotent and he has no moral authority or any connection to what can be called universal righteousness. He cannot create anything except within the pre-existing framework of reality, just like anyone else. He is not 'a God'.
Why doesn't Zack Snyder make an actual movie about God instead of having characters confuse other characters for God?
The problem is that the movie cuts a lot of the supplementary shit out; for example, when the psychologist evaluates him there's a school report from a 10 year old Rorschach in which he argues that Truman dropping the bomb was justified because he saved lives; an ideology that he now opposes
that's called a plot hole in the real world
Thats not a plot hole, it no in fashion what so ever breaks the plot. Thats a character having his views change as he gets older. You fucking idiot.
You fucking nailed Moore's accent. Well memed
that's called a retcon dude lmao
>Rorschach was designed to be everything wrong with objectivist idealogy
You don't know what you're talking about, do you?
No it's not, child Rorschach still thinks the bomb was justified even if adult Rorschach changed his mind on the subject.
then michael moore should have explained why. it's a retcon otherwise.