I'm thinking about becoming a vegetarian. I like to eat burgers and chicken but I can't help but feel bad. I love animals and know that the animals we eat don't wan't to die. I could do fine eating vegetables, fruits, and nuts. I like all of those things just fine. It makes eating out a little harder I would imagine, but I would feel better about myself as a person.
Anyone tried it out? Were you happy/healthy? Why did you do it?
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Bumping for justice.
>I love animals
Why?
>know that the animals we eat don't want to die
Do you think the plants we eat want to die?
I have thought about that. What makes round celled life more valuable? I think it's that they are aware of their life and fight to keep it. Where things like fruit trees grow fruit specifically to be eaten and spread their seeds. It makes more sense to me.
I don't know why I love animals. Always have. My dog is my best friend. Sad I know.
>I think it's that they are aware of their life and fight to keep it
So plants that send out distress signals to other plants should not be eaten?
>Where things like fruit trees grow fruit specifically to be eaten and spread their seeds.
So you are only going to eat things like fruit, making sure to plant the seeds after you are done?
>I don't know why I love animals
Think about it.
I don't think plants want anything. They have no brain. Can they possibly even know that they exist?
But why do they grow at all I wonder.
You mentioned eating nuts. Every vegetarian I've ever met is fucking kookoo crazy. Enjoy your cannibalism while I munch on this tasty burger.
But those "signals" aren't something that the plant sends out because it wants to. It's just built in to the plant. Like we don't tell out heart to beat I suppose.
I completely get what you're saying and agree though. I've certainly given it a lot of though. Life consumes life, it has to. But eating plants seems to me to be less cruel. They aren't conscious beings. They aren't aware.
As far as we know anyway.
>But why do they grow at all I wonder
It's almost like life predates thought and brains aren't intrinsically meaningful or something.
I've noticed this as well. Most vegetarians are weird as fuck. I would still be eating things like eggs and cheese. I should be getting all the nutrients I need to live. Hopefully not go crazy as well.
I love burgers though. Maybe those bean burgers aren't too bad?
I certainly wouldn't be one of those people that judge omnivores either, because this hardly even makes sense to me.
>But those "signals" aren't something that the plant sends out because it wants to. It's just built in to the plant.
Are the bleatings of a goat something that it sends out because it wants to, or is it a built in evolutionary response?
> They aren't conscious beings. They aren't aware.
So? Why does that matter?
Because eating a conscious, self aware being is what is weighing on my conscious. A plant never knows that it even exists or stops existing.
>Because eating a conscious, self aware being is what is weighing on my conscious.
Why though? That's the question. Why do you think that matters?
>A plant never knows that it even exists or stops existing.
So? It does exist, doesn't it?
True, brains aren't required for base life, but they are required for self-awareness and appreciation of life. That's what makes me want to try to do this. Taking life from something that knows the value of it doesn't set well with me. Even though I know that it's the natural order.
>know that the animals we eat don't wan't to die
You assume too much.
>I would still be eating things like eggs and cheese
Animals are still killed during production of dairy and eggs, so that wouldn't really be any better than eating meat.
No, that's a fair assumption. Animals have a desire to live, and if you think otherwise, provide evidence
I think what it boils down to is that animals like life. They play and eat and have emotions. They want to live. Plants don't care or even know. If I could just exist without eating I probably would, but eating plants seems like the better option for me. They don't care, and often times even rely on being eaten to spread their seeds via other animals shit.
>Taking life from something that knows the value of it doesn't set well with me
The question still remains: why?
Here's a short video on the dairy industry. If you consume dairy, you should definitely watch this.
>hour long video
ain't nobody got time for that
The only vegan argument that isn't weak is the environmental one, which makes eating meat wrong in the same way that driving a car for fun is wrong.
Try to kill one, it will run away.
I don't suppose it's much better, but at least they live... Maybe free range chicken eggs? Pay the extra $3. I really don't know...
fuck i love cheese, and i would torture a million baby cows to eat it along with steak
Because it makes me sad. They want to live and I want them to live. I don't know why I feel this way. When I am around animals, even chickens and cows, I can see that they would rather not die.
The same reason I wouldn't kill a person. People are the same. They just want to live.
She says it herself: "nobody gives a shit"
There's nothing morally wrong going on in that video.
Nope. m.youtube.com
If it bothers you so much you can really only ignore it and keep eating meat or become a whiny faggot numale vegan.
That does seem cruel. Being a vegetarian seems like it will be hard enough. I need milk and eggs... Maybe there are humane options available.
>Because it makes me sad.
That's not a very good reason.
>The same reason I wouldn't kill a person
Except we can, you know, come up with rational reasons why people going around killing each other would be a problem. Society would collapse. We don't base morality on what makes us sad.
If I stop eating dairy will I get a qt girlfriend like that?
I went vegetarian after watching Earthlings about 3 or 4 years ago. I went vegan a few months after that.
My health improved when I went vegetarian, but it really improved dramatically when I went vegan. I reversed some digestive issues I had, lost a bunch of weight, had more energy, and just feel better in general. I laugh when I hear people try to perpetuate the "vegans are weak and unhealthy" stereotype, because it certainly wasn't true for me. I'm way healthier than I was when I ate meat, and I still eat processed junk and don't exercise enough. Those are habits that I'm planning on changing, but just cutting meat, eggs, and dairy out of my diet did fucking wonders.
I really hope you give it a shot. Even if you just cut out meat, try it and see how you feel.
There is no good argument in favor of eating meat. There are many in favor of going vegan, beyond the environmental, and include health and ethical concerns.
Fun fact: you'll also feel a lot better if you just reduce your meat consumption. You don't need to eliminate it altogether.
I live in a farm state. I can buy eggs from local farmers who have chickens that live in coupes and walk around in a field all day. I would have to pay $6 for a dozen, but if I can avoid supporting that then that's okay I suppose.
Fisting the cow sees a little fucked.
>I don't know why I feel this way
Because you're a human being who is waking up to your cognitive dissonance
If you're in the US, Whole Foods sells a vegetarian burger patty that's pretty damn good. In their 365 range. My wife's a vegetarian. I'm not, but those burgers are tasty. There's also a vegetarian burger getting released by Impossible Foods. It's a start up, I've heard people can't taste the difference.
>There is no good argument in favor of eating meat
It tastes good and there's nothing morally wrong with it.
>health
That's a personal matter. People are free to do all sorts of things that aren't healthy for them. There are plenty of vegan foods that are shit for your health.
>ethical concerns
There are no ethical concerns.
>There's nothing morally wrong going on in that video
I don't think you actually believe that. If you weren't just throwing up a wall, you would at least be able to recognize why other people find it objectionable. You're being purposefully obtuse, because deep down, it actually bothers you.
I'd going to try it. Just seems like it will be difficult to get used to the diet.
Avoiding sadness seems rational to me. I don't want to feel guilty about eating a meal. I don't want a chickens life to equate to a day's meal.
Keep in mind we breed animals on farms, to eat. If we didnt, they would never have lived at all.
>I don't think you actually believe that.
I do though.
>you would at least be able to recognize why other people find it objectionable
Because they are having a misfiring of an emotional reaction that evolved so they can sympathize with other humans.
>You're being purposefully obtuse, because deep down, it actually bothers you.
Nope.
Veganism is a communist plot to make men impotent, protein/ testosterone deficient.
They are pumping you chalk full of estrogen and letting your hormones run wild. They want us to lose our muscle/fat ratio so we have the strength of women.
You really think it's a coincidence that people JUST started feeling bad about eating animals within the past few generations? Around the same time that Marxism emerges?
Sympathzing with your food is not normal.
Notice when an animal does this in the wild, it's not "aww compassion", everyone knows it's the result of traumatic injury/PTSD to the animals brain.
But when a human does it, it's about feels: muh morals n shiet.
Stop letting the Marxists brainwash you.
Sadly, there aren't. The dairy and egg industries don't need males, so male cows are sold off for veal and baby male chicks are killed off and discarded.
But you're right, it is hard enough. I started off going vegetarian, and that is a great place to start. Just stop eating meat, and continue educating yourself
>Avoiding sadness seems rational to me.
Alternate solution then: realize that there's no reason to feel sad about it. Seek counseling if you need help.
Plants are living things too. So instead of killing something that has the ability to fight back, you just yank veggies and fruits from the ground/their tree and murder them with the thought that you're not killing. How cruel can you be.
This gives me hope. Thanks user
Valid idea. I do believe most people at their core think that killing is wrong, but we are told from birth that people eat animals, even though this day and age their is no need to, only a want to. However I respect peoples right to eat as they choose, I just want something different for me.
Fun fact: That's just one of the reasons to go vegan. Animal agriculture is a multifaceted issue, affecting the health of individuals, the environment, the well-being of animals and the ethical concerns with exploiting them, and the spread of major communicable diseases.
Trying it out now, and I'm happy and healthy. Doing it for the ethics, I don't think it's right for me to eat meat when there are so many alternatives.
> I do believe most people at their core think that killing is wrong
Do you have a problem when clean your kitchen counter, killing bacteria? Killing can be fine and even perfectly normal. It's murder that's the problem.
Or, you know, you could stop being an antagonizing fuck and let this guy make his own ethical decisions like a big boy.
its not that hard, go for it and if dont like it u can go back.
Fun fact: I can talk about all of those things as well and how vegans are hypocrites at best.
>the well-being of animals and the ethical concerns with exploiting them
Still not a real reason.
You're a joke. Even if you don't personally have any qualms about killing animals, you should be able to recognize that there are ethical concerns. Why would anyone take you seriously when you make it clear that you won't take their concerns into consideration?
False equivalency, the post
Either a bad troll or a tinfoil hat. Vegetarians and vegans have existed for hundreds of years. There is no plot to cut off your balls.
Thanks. Will do.
I think feeling guilt for taking a life is normal, I don't want to not feel bad about that.
But plants do not know that they are alive or value that life. They rely on their fruit being eaten to spread seeds even. The difference is eating something that values its life verses eating something that doesn't even know that it is alive.
He's not making ethical decisions like a big boy though. His morality boils down to "I shouldn't do things because they make me sad." That's the morality of a child.
What does that have to do with anything?
Also, wouldn't it make it more fucked up to breed something into existence for the sole purpose of killing it? What kind of life is that ? Personally, if I could choose between that life and not living, I would choose not living. No contest.
>let this guy make his own ethical decisions like a big boy.
That's an interesting thought. I pictured OP as a woman for the whole conversation. Makes you think.
Another reason people go vegan: sexual abuse as a child.
They see animals as helpless which reminds them of themselves getting abused as children.
Gee, I wonder who promotes the idea of sexual relationships with children.
Dingdingding! That's right. The cultural Marxists.
So, your Marxists teachers make you read books in highschool/Uni like the Beat Generation which talks about how gay sex with little kids can be fun even if the kid is getting raped he will cum uncontrollably. Then they hypersexualize little girls, tempting people to rape them.
They want you to be abused. They want you to see the entire world as simply oppression.
They want you to see food as oppression. Nature itself as oppression.
Family as oppression. Authority as oppression.
You really wanna get back at the guy who molested you? Don't go vegan. Stop the cycle of Marxist indoctrination.
>Nope.
I believe you. /s
>should be able to recognize that there are ethical concerns
There aren't any that hold up though.
>Why would anyone take you seriously when you make it clear that you won't take their concerns into consideration?
Because I already have taken them into consideration and found them lacking.
Why should I keep taking vegans seriously even though they keep saying things like "deep down, you really already know killing animals is wrong" as if they know me.
Plants are not sentient. If you can't tell the difference between sentient life and non-sentient life, you are pretty dumb. I'm not sure what help there is for you, and I hope that you're just trolling and don't actually think like that.
I don't really care if you believe me or not. You remind me of Christian fundamentalists who say that everyone knows that God exists.
There's clearly a difference, it just isn't relevant.
1/10. I replied.
It's not just that it makes me sad, it's why it makes me sad. Surely, even as someone who disagrees, you can see the moral dilemma with cruel treatment and killing of animals right? Taking their life without even blinking an eye.
>There aren't any that hold up though.
Killing holds up to me. Killing when, in modern times, there is no need for it. You don't have to agree, but surely you can acknowledge the logic behind people who may view it this way?
What's it like being a sociopath, user?
What the fuck does that even mean? I think your atherosclerosis is affecting the blood flow to your brain, son.
I don't know what vegans being hypocrites has to do with any of that other stuff, but yeah, animal welfare is a reason to not eat animals.
Are you really that stupid, or just being antagonistic?
>Surely, even as someone who disagrees, you can see the moral dilemma with cruel treatment and killing of animals right?
No, I can't. All I ever see from people who have a dilemma with it is that it makes them feel sad. There's a reason vegan videos are filled with images designed to create an emotional response rather than just giving a good moral argument against it.
Good luck with it.
I'm very casually cutting out most meat and dairy, but I still partake sometimes.
I think it's mostly a kind of cultural indoctrination that makes us think the modern slaughter and dairy industry is perfectly OK. It's fucked up, when you take a step back and consider the reality of it, and how unnecessary it is (in most developed countries). And actually most people, when confronted directly with the reality of what they're eating and where it came from, feel slightly repulsed... It's just very easy when everything is packaged, disembodied, sanitised, and removed from the act of killing, to see meat, milk and eggs and something other than what they are.
Translating that realisation into motivation enough to avoid all meat and dairy is difficult, though. It's easy to fall back into old habits.
Thankfully, in a lot of countries, vegetarianism isn't such a niche choice anymore. Makes it slightly easier.
Anyway, it's perfectly possible to be healthy on a vegetarian diet. You've just got to replace the nutrition that you lose.
You can't rewrite history to fit your Marxist worldview.
Hinduism/Jainism is not the same thing as vegetarian/veganism.
The reasons behind religious restrictions on food are spiritual/sacred, not moralist or ethical or environmental or "muh feels".
Feeling respect/sanctity for all life and sympathizing with the pain IS normal.
Feeling guilt for eating is not normal.
Guilt is a result of formerly Christian, now Marxist influence in society, which wants you to feel guilty about everything so you'll never be ambitious and be so afraid to oppress anyone that you'll never talk to a girl, get in a fight or ask for a raise.
If you really think this is a "tin foil hate theory" take a look at some of the Vegan websites. Find me a single one that doesn't have Marxist terminology/propaganda embedded within it (aside from the ones that straight up admit Marxism), and I'll show you a man that didn't look hard enough.
You remind me of a Christian fundamentalist who refuses to accept logical reasoning or scientific evidence, and keeps peddling your ancient and outmoded way of living as the way of God
don't think of it as vegetarianism. think of it as living past 50, and not dying from sugar disease or stroke.
>Killing when, in modern times, there is no need for it.
There is need for killing. You need to kill for most foods. Whether you are killing animals or you are killing plants, fungi, or bacteria, you are killing.
I'm not a sociopath. I feel deeply for my fellow man and donate my time, money, effort, and blood to help them.
>animal welfare is a reason to not eat animals
Not a valid one.
>just being antagonistic?
I see something that's wrong and I attack it, if that's what you mean.
Killing is immoral. Can we agree on that? If killing is not immoral what is immoral to you? Torture is immoral right?
If someone views sentient life as equal in value, which hopefully you can at least understand, then you should be able to see how the way animals are treated before slaughter is immoral to them right?
>refuses to accept logical reasoning or scientific evidence
I accept both those things though. I freely acknowledge that the farming of animals is bad for the environment and that eating meat can have detrimental effects on your health.
Well worded user. Thanks.
Right on.
>Killing is immoral. Can we agree on that?
No. Is it immoral to kill disease-causing bacteria? Is it immoral to kill yeast by baking bread?
>If killing is not immoral what is immoral to you?
Harming people.
> Torture is immoral right?
Torturing people is.
>which hopefully you can at least understand
I can understand it, sure, it's just completely arbitrary.
My grandpa is 94 he eats meat or animal products everyday.
Maybe in Murica where you add high fructose corn syrup to your chicken breast and deep fry it in root beer, you can't live past 50 because the drinking water contains lard.
How is it not relevant?
It's the difference between being able to experience and not experience reality in a subjective way. If that's irrelevant, then you are saying that human life has no more value than grass. Do you really believe that, or are you stretching because your argument is incredibly weak?
>then you are saying that human life has no more value than grass
Not intrinsically, no. Human life subjectively has more value to us though since we are human and our societies are made up of humans. There's no reason to extend this value to everything that is sentient.
Why is torturing a person different from a chicken? Or cow? Monkey? Pet dog? Where do you begin to think it's wrong?
There have been smokers who lived passed 100. That doesn't mean that smoking is healthy. Anecdotes and statistical outliers don't demonstrate that eating meat is healthy
Been vegetarian for over a year, going to be going vegan soon. I feel 100% better, but its not just because meats not good for you. I improved my diet drastically because you need to pay more attention about what you eat. Groceries are cheaper though, I feel better, I can sleep now. By far one of the best choices I've made TBQH.
Because our society is composed of people. Allowing the torture of people is clearly and demonstrably harmful to society and the individuals within it. Torturing a chicken is not inherently harmful to society.
>Where do you begin to think it's wrong?
At people. Torturing a pet dog would only be wrong in the sense that it causes emotional distress to the dog's owner.
What is a vegetable?
Then I understand you're view.
A plant.
Your*
Intrinsically, human value does have more value than grass, and I think your view here is in the minority. Do you really reject the concept of sentience hierarchies?
Careful not to use big words.
If value is subjective...
and I only have value because I value myself...
and animals are capable of valuing themselves...
but plants are incapable of subjective experiences...
Then animals have value,
And plants don't.
Because, the only quality a thing needs to have value, is to be able to value itself.
>Intrinsically, human value does have more value than grass
How so? How is it the value of life not something subjective minds give to things? The universe doesn't seem to have any sort of special consideration for life.
>I think your view here is in the minority
Very possibly. That doesn't make me wrong.
>Do you really reject the concept of sentience hierarchies?
If you are asking if I reject the idea that some things are more sentient than others, then no. If you are asking if sentience should correspond with moral standing, then no.
see
>and animals are capable of valuing themselves
Which would give them value to themselves, not to me.
>Because, the only quality a thing needs to have value, is to be able to value itself.
In a sense, but that value does not necessarily extend to any other thing. An animal can value itself, but I do not value the animal.
I didn't say you had to value them, I said it gives them value, while plants have none.
So killing the homeless could only help society. Is it moral? Even though they are quite sentient, they are not helpful to society right? Anything wrong with killing them?
Even by your own logic, animals have value, while plants don't have any, and it is in fact because they are sentient.
It is the fact that animals can value their own lives that gives their lives value. Whether or not you choose to respect that does not change the fact that they value their own lives.
Except that an entity capable of thought could value a plant, giving it value even if the plant cannot give it to itself. Consider a pet plant or favorite tree, for instance.
Ok, let's consider it. Then isn't it a problem, by your own logic, because it's an affront to the owner of said plant? If the plant was unowned or not valued by a sentient being, then there is no issue of it being valued.
>So killing the homeless could only help society.
It wouldn't though. Your surface level reading of morality is laughably bad and common.
>Anything wrong with killing them?
A number of things. For instance, if non-homeless thought they could be killed just for becoming homeless, they would be motivated to do anything and everything to not become homeless, including murdering the non-homeless.