Daily Japanese Thread DJT #1855

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Read the guide before asking questions.
djtguide.neocities.org/

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i.4cdn.org/h/1494769262100.jpg
detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1012208075
ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/可能動詞
dictionary.goo.ne.jp/jn/235119/meaning/m1u/れる/
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Fuck doing reps, it's boring as fuck and the best strategy for learning is to find a way of studying that is fun.

>best strategy for learning is to find a way of studying that is fun.
agreed

on the other hand doing your reps gives you some actual structure for your learning process

Reward yourself by after ever completed set of daily Anki reviews, inject a quarter of a gram of heroin into your cock.

Speaking of which, I wonder if a stiff cock is actually a suitable place to shoot up drugs. I mean there are usually a lot of thick veins on there, seems pretty practical as an injection site.

Don't know if people actually do that but the idea must have circulated around various forms of mass media enough to plant the seed inside my head.
Before getting too caught up on looking into this, I'm going to jump offline and read some manga. Only came in the thread to provide a crude natured bump.

Procrastination

How would you translate the highlighted sentence?
I'm especially interested in its second half/ Because this ?? leaves me in a torpor. Got no clue how to express it in english.

Has anyone here tried any websites or apps for talking with real japanese people? I just downloaded an app called Tandem after a friend recommended it.

I've been using the anki deck for about a fortnight now
To other people that used it: how did you find it?
20 new cards a day + revision seems fairly full on to me.
I'm not sure if it's because I study multiple languages at once, but I think 10 new words daily is plenty
>inb4 you can change the settings
I know, but I don't want to look like a brainlet :'(

20 new a day will already take you years to amass a decent vocabulary
an hour a day is not 'full on' not even half on

死んでるスレ

Reps aren't a problem, but I never feel like reading although it's what must be done, even finished core already.

I always finish my reviews and want to read, but by the time I've done my reps I'm already tired and want to relax so I end up playing a video game, watching a movie or going to sleep.

I'll never learn Japanese with that attitude, I hate myself.

10 words a day is fine. Repetitions and vocabulary are a part of learning the language but shouldn't be the main focus of it.

don't worry mate, I'm the opposite which isn't better
I read manga, write down words I don't know, some of them probably +5 times already, then keep on reading without spending much time on repetition

Why don't you try reading before you do your reps?

Are there alternatives to Anki for learning vocabulary? I just started learning japanese a few weeks ago and can't get the hang of Anki.
Maybe i'm just doing it wrong.

Reading

>I read manga, write down words I don't know, some of them probably +5 times already, then keep on reading without spending much time on repetition
We're in the same boat, man. I spent a couple of months reading a lot of manga, 100 or so volumes worth without using Anki at all, with fuck all to show for it. My memory is absolutely atrocious so recently I started using Anki (again) for vocab as a bare necessity.
To give you an idea, today I re-read through the first four volumes of よつばと! and ended up with a list of 107 words which I decided to look up and add to the daily Anki revision schedule. These are words I would already know enough, among others, if I had bothered to do a little revision each day alongside reading.

Anki is like a pair of diving fins. It isn't everything but it sure gets you a lot fucking further than diving with nothing.

Well I always viewed anki as a necessity in order to not forgot vocab, also the way anki reviews stack up if you miss a day made me prioritize it so I did that first in the past.
Reading was more of an additional thing for me, but I rarely did it in the end..

>Why don't you try reading before you do your reps?
Might give it a try, I'm just afraid I can't concentrate or enjoy reading when I know there are still reps waiting for me afterwards.

Well, I think you feel accomplished when you finish your Anki reps and maybe you don't need to read afterward. Since you have to do your Anki reps, I'm sure you'll do them after reading.

Who knows. It might work.

...

translate this i.4cdn.org/h/1494769262100.jpg

Is duolingo really that great? Looks just like memrise.

Interesting way to think, I'll try it.
Hope it works thank you for the advice.

What do you read, user?

Measure your goals.
10 words a day means 200 days to finish Core2k and 600 to finish Core6k.
If that seems like a reasonable goal for you, go for it. I wanted to learn 6k under a year, so I did 20 a day. And I wanted to learn 10k under 500 days, so I sticked with it. 10k might take your 3 years, though.
At this rather slow pace your should probably invest a good amount of time on reading after you're done with Core2k. If you manage to do it even before, good.

Hey, I have a better idea: do 20 a day until you're done with Core2k (3 months) and then lower it down to 10 a day. It doesn't start to get review-heavy until later on, so that won't push you that much.

cute pic

"Ahhh.... amazing! Len, what is this feeling?"
"The pleasure of being cummed inside, Rin-nee-sama"
"Oh, for fuck's sake, stop memeing me, you sissy excuse of a robot!"

*translators note: nee-sama means big sister*

No it's pretty horrible. Don't use it unless you want to learn sentences like " I wash the yellow hairy tomatoes of my sister"

Incorrect. Duolingo used to have a sentence randomizer that created sentences like that, but their new algorithms are way more conservative, odd sentences are now an exception.
Besides, there is nothing grammatically wrong with washing your sister's yellow hairy tomatoes.

can someone explain to me when to use を instead of が with stuff like blabla が好き
I don't see it that often but I fail to see the pattern

I don't understand your question. With 好き specifically? If so, using を instead of が only sees marginal use and is considered slangy.

「悪いが、あのリヤカーは簡単にはどかせられんでな。すまんが旅人さん。モトラドさんを一旦レールから出してくれんかの?」

Could someone please help me figure out how どかせられんでな has been conjugated?

negative potential causative of 退く

You don't think it's causative-passive? I've never seen a causative-potential before.

どかせられない
can not be removed

No, that would make no sense in that context.

What the fuck is this shit? My handwriting is better than this.

About par for the course for a lot of handwritten stuff..

How should I say, "My phone (battery) died" (i.e. ran out of power)?

「携帯の電池が切れました」?

「携帯の充電が切れました」?

>those drawings
>that handwriting
T-they have to be kids, r-right?

That, or doctors.

Beneath that clear blue sky, with the cold, empty heavens of the north country spread out above, its was truly the remnant of a dream of the summer grasses.

The 夏草どもの夢の跡 part is a reference to a haiku by 松尾芭蕉, from おくのほそ道 when he visits 平泉, where the Northern Fujiwara had once ruled before being wiped out and conquered by the Moritomo.
>「夏草や兵どもが夢の跡」
Summer grass! The remnants of the soldiers dreams.

The imagery suggests a place that had once been bustling with activity, where people may have harbored great dreams, but that is now desolate, and only weeds remain.

Thank G-d for the digital revolution.

Studying bad handwriting is much better than studying good handwriting. It's how you learn to distinguish between style and substance.

Huh, it's my first time knowingly encountering a causative-potential then. Thanks.

The potential and the passive forms are both two different functions of the auxiliary verbs れる or られる. The "potential form" of u-verbs that they teach in English-language Japanese courses is also just a shortened form of this (e.g. 行ける is a shortened form of 行かれる, with the -ar- removed).
Because (ら)れる can have four different meanings (spontaneous, passive, potential, honorific), it's normally considered more proper to use the form させることができる to express causative-potential, rather than させられる, in order to avoid confusion. But spoken language is not as picky, and either can be used.

Is that from キノの旅、user?

Thanks, I have a better understanding of the potential now. Could you briefly explain spontaneous?

Yeah, third chapter of the first book.
---

- 「仕事でのう。一人でずっとやっとるよ。枕木も取っ払うきに」
and
- 「すまんがのう、リヤカーは退けられないきに。そちらさんでよろしゅう頼む」

Sorry, is きに = きにする? This is probably 関西弁, which I haven't yet studied since I was last asking about it.

気にならない、maybe?

It may be the affirmative 気になる, but the negative wouldn't fit in the context.

>The potential and the passive forms are both two different functions of the auxiliary verbs れる or られる.
The potential for godan verbs has a different etymology and existed first.

Googling it it seems to mean ので/だから.

I had a guess as something he couldn't bare doing, which is why he asked キノ and モトラド 「頼む」.

Really? Damn, that's very different to きに. Where did you find that? What exactly does のう mean in this context? I've seen it being used as something similar to よ, as in X~だよ, but only ever by non Kansai speakers putting on an old guy voice.

Yea, のう is 役割語 for old men in fiction. のう is similar to な/の.
>Where did you find that?
Googled きに 方言

>Googled きに 方言
I'm an idiot for not thinking of that. On the plus side, learned something new. Thanks.

why isnt the duolingo course ready yet?

it takes you to n5 at best what's wrong with you

literally reading through tyler kim once and memorizing like 200 basic words would give you the ability to become n5 just by watching anime

because its fun

it's not fun
if you want to have fun, pirate one of those "learn the hiragana/kanji by playing games!" games from steam, it'll literally be more useful than duolingo

電池

>The potential for godan verbs has a different etymology
You might be right and you might be wrong.
At the very least, in the 学校文法 that's taught in schools in Japan, 可能動詞 are said to be a compressed version of the 未然形+れる construction, analogous to the ら抜き言葉 of 一段 verbs.
detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1012208075
>学校文法では「五段(四段)未然形+れる(る)」のつづまった形という説が言われていますが
Other theories as to where 可能動詞 come from do exist, but Wikipedia only says that the relationship between 行ける and 行かれる is unclear, not that there is no relationship.
ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/可能動詞
>「行かれる」のような「~れる・られる」の形は、古語の「~る・らる」の形から変化したものだが、「行ける」のような可能動詞はそれとの関係は不明である。
Another theory is that it's derived by analogy from the shift from 下二段 verbs into 下一段 with a spontaneous meaning, as in 知る to know → 知れる to be known, or 切る to cut → 切れる to be cut, but examples of this kind of word are rare.
Another is that it comes from the 連用形+得る construction, as in 行きえる→行ける, which sounds more likely, but doesn't seem any more or less unthinkable of a shift than 行かれる→行ける to me.
So you can choose to believe it's whatever you want, but it's always just a theory, and I prefer to go by the official one.

>and existed first.
This, at least, is definitely wrong.
From Wikipedia:
>可能動詞の発生は室町時代まで遡るが、多く用いられるようになったのは近代に至ってからである。
The 行ける form dates back to the Muromachi period at the earliest, and did not enter common use until much later. On the other hand, れる and られる date back to the Heian period in the form of る and らる, and these have always had a potential meaning. And even earlier than that, in the Nara period, you had ゆ and らゆ which were used in the same way.

I've seen it mentioned that 行ける might've come from 行きえる, which seems plausible at first glance.

The etymology given the most promise by (good) western linguists at the moment is the 連用形+得る construction. 行かれる→行ける is entirely plausible, but doesn't seem like it had a reason to happen. Contracting an i~e sequence to e, however, is a canonical sound change in Japonic languages.

>The 行ける form dates back to the Muromachi period at the earliest, and did not enter common use until much later. On the other hand, れる and られる date back to the Heian period in the form of る and らる, and these have always had a potential meaning. And even earlier than that, in the Nara period, you had ゆ and らゆ which were used in the same way.
This is correct. I don't know what got into me.

>I've seen it mentioned that 行ける might've come from 行きえる, which seems plausible at first glance.
And I mentioned that in my post as well.

I feel like the 行かれる→行ける should be more accepted by western linguists who love saying that 五段 verbs have a consonant-ending root and 一段 verbs have a vowel-ending root and that the 未然形 doesn't actually exist, since you have to divide 行かれる into ik-areru in order to delete the -ar-.
But I don't give a shit about what western linguists think about Japanese anyway.

>And I mentioned that in my post as well.
Please be patient, I have attention deficiencies

I sure believe the 未然形 exists, at least in classical japanese where it has a grammatical function, and modern japanese which inherits from it. If you're referring to Vovin, I think the most silly things he's said about japanese verbal categories are things he said back when he still believed in Altaic, though I haven't kept a chronology of what he believed at what times since I don't have OCD.

>But I don't give a shit about what western linguists think about Japanese anyway.

If not from "western linguists", then from me, a crackpot non-linguist: One of the reasons is that it gives a transparent modern-ish morphology for it. Speaking from the perspective of language change, inflections with opaque morphology become fusional (see: navajo) or ornamental very quickly, or get replaced by other, transparent constructions. The only real exceptions are when the inflection represents something very close to universal grammar, like basic tense, or deriving different grammatical categories (participles, etc). Also ありえる.

Also, language change *loves* deriving new forms from parallel etymology, though mainstream linguists are very hesitant to say anything about it because it brings out the cranks.

ありがとう

If you look up れる or られる in a dictionary:
dictionary.goo.ne.jp/jn/235119/meaning/m1u/れる/
You get four usages: 受け身 (passive), 可能 (potential), 自発 (spontaneous), 尊敬 (honorific).

The explanation it gives for 自発 is:
>自然と…られる。つい…られてくる。
In other words, something happening suddenly all on its own.
To use the example from the れる definition:
>故郷に残した両親のことが思い出される
I am suddenly reminded of the parents I left behind in my home town.
And from the られる definition:
>性格が性格だから将来が案じられる
His personality being what it is, he gets worried about the future.
We express this through the passive voice in English, but it's distinct in that the person or thing who actually does the verb is unclear, and the focus is on the verb simply happening, not on the verb being done to something by something else.

Why the fuck did Lang-8 close registration? That was an amazing resource.

What are you having problems with in particular? Anki has a bit of a learning curve, but it's such powerful software that it's extremely worth it.

Will ITH work with steam games like Danganronpa? I was thinking of reading it next.

I don't know about danganronpa specifically but I know that it doesn't matter whether the game is on steam or not, ITH can attach to the process like normally anyway.

Half an hour a day becomes full on when you're also actively studying two other languages.
Thank you, I'll take that onboard
My goal is to do the 6k deck, and after the 2k, to start supplement my reading with manga and the like

>Half an hour a day becomes full on when you're also actively studying two other languages.
We don't care, this thread is for japanese. Everybody has the same number of hours in the day and by posting in here is either admitting priority to japanese or dropping it.

It takes a lot of reading to start seeing words as "snapshots" of a concept, if you can't read this, it's probably because you're still in the kanji recognition phase and depends on having a clear isolated look at each symbol.

Keep pushing!

Kek wtf
Did /djt/ become a religion?
"Pledge absolute allegiance or prepare for hell-fire, heathen!"
Calm down you fucking autist

While he is overreacting a bit, ultimately there are only so many hours in a day. You'll have to prioritize what you really care about. A man who chases two hares catches neither.

I have no doubt. At the moment I've been prioritising the other two (as well as work and uni, obvs) above Japanese
But my initial issue wasn't with the time exactly, but rather the 20 new words daily.
I was wondering if anyone else had issues with it, from my time studying languages in the past I normally covered about 10 words a day (except for the first few months where you make much more progress)

Is there any difference between "はなします" and "はなせます" besides dialect?

>We don't care
I care.

Which verb exactly are you talking about, 話す?はなせる・はなせます is a potential form where the other is the plain, "polite" form.

You're gonna only be talking to people here who are extremely passionate about learning japanese. They'd do 100 words a day if it was humanly possible.

20 is doable, but it probably requires more time than you want to put in.

...

Yeah I learned To "Speak" as はなします, but Duolingo keeps using はなせます for what appears to just be polite present form.

>I finished my college semester last week with 4 A's (math, chem, music theory, and composition) and I did my 日本語 the whole way through.


Are you telling me you did 20 words a day in anki, got A's in school, and performed a full-time job at the same fucking time?

I refuse to believe it. And if you managed to pull it off, what did you sacrifice? Socializing with friends?

You might be prepared for that sacrifice

But.I...I am not.

>having friends
>socializing

Japanese isn't just for NEETs, friend

リア充爆発せよ

The new Duolingo course seems pretty fun. I'll play with it for the next week or so and see if it's any good.

Has anyone found much success with Human Japanese? Was thinking about pairing the two together so I have a little more structure and explanation.

If you use these things at all you should finish them within a few months. They're not necessarily bad but in practice will harm more people than they help by fostering the delusion that grammar exercises are sufficient to learn Japanese.

Duolingo hasn't taught me much, but it certainly makes you more cautious when typing incorrect constructions. Kinda like shock therapy.
And the more I study grammar, the more I manage to overcome those really long/tricky sentences I would just fail every time before.
There was a sentence "I read whenever I eat" which I couldn't for the life of me get right, the suggested correct answer being some combo of stuff like 食べるの間にいつも読む (but I always mess it up, I'm sure there's more to it), and I recently circumvented it by using what I learned with ながら. Worked in a way more straightforward way.

How are the lessons, do they teach you kana? Do they teach you to type in Japanese with a white pig keyboard? Is there furigana everywhere? Are there even kanji?

They focus on hiragana at the beginning. From what I can tell they slide katakana and kanji in over time. I haven't gotten to the point where I have to type anything yet, but I hope that's done later.

The reason why I mostly ask is because I know it doesn't work with Phoenix Wright if you emulate it. You can't get the text file from it.

Emulators are different

Woah, weird. They usually get you typing right away in most courses, maybe they reeeeeally dumbed this version down.

>一筋縄では行かない
長い言葉は何ですか?