Why did Jesus talk? Doesn't it go against the whole point of the story and its title?

Why did Jesus talk? Doesn't it go against the whole point of the story and its title?

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Because Scorsese is a hack. Nice job noticing it
>the biggest point of the movie is keeping the faith in harsh moments
>the climatic moral choice of the protagonist is literally resolved by a deus ex machina

BRAVO SCORSESE

Thing is, I thought the movie was completely fine up until that point.

I know.
I loved it until they captured him.
Then it was just bland theological discussion and a really drawn out third act.

Does the Jebuz talking happen in the book? Or is this just Scorsese being a shill?

Could have just been his imagination

The image he saw in the water could've been his imagination but I don't think the talking leaves any doubt.

Plus the movie premiered at the Vatican. No doubt that there's a catholic bias here.

If your mind can create an image that isn't there it can create a voice that isn't there

It wouldn't even be blasphemous though, it could have been his consciousness telling him what he thinks Christ would have wanted

No
Wrong

We might be splitting hairs here but I feel like interpreting a distorted imagine of one's self in a puddle of water is easier than imagining very well thought out and coherent dialogue in his head during psychological torture.

But the biggest issue is that it seems to go against the intention of the title.

Very well thought out response.

It doesn't though. The point of the movie isn't that God is silent all the time or that God doesn't exist, the point is dealing with Silence in hardship

Whatever it is, it doesnt change the fact that Rodriguez had no responsibility at all in the choice he made.
God told him to do it or he was crazy and not responsible for his actions.
The fact remains that in the silence, were faith is truly tested and where japanese christians dicided to die, he never had to choose

DVDSCR when?

>it seems to go against the intention of the title.

Actually your comment just made me realize that the moment Christ speaks to him, whether it was real or not, he becomes silent for the rest of the film.

that's not even true.
He speaks again when he chose to confess Ikichigiro for the last time (I think)

Prick

>goes against the title
Why does everything have to be literal? Are you, dare I say it, autisticalised?

Missing the point
During the weeks of trials and suffering, asking for God's guidance, and hearing nothing, Christ revealed to him at the perfect moment the truth

He was struggling to decide whether it was more Christ-like to end the persecution and the mission in Japan or continue the persecution while also continuing the mission. Christ eventually revealed the answer to him, because after being fed lies constantly he still looked to the Lord for wisdom, knowing that he was the only source of goodness without evil he'd ever seen, even when it seemed like God was gone, it was better to trust in his goodness and holiness rather than succumb to the worldy wisdom of either saving himself or judging what was best for other people. God showed him something that was barely relevatory; just Christ's own nature, which he already knew.

He chose to end the persecution and hold Christ in his heart until the end, knowing that even if he just brought Kirichoo back to faith that was at least enough reason to endure what he did.

Fair enough. Why does god chose to break his silence at that moment though? Why not do it before? Why does god chose to "Suffer with humanity" instead of dulling the suffering.

It might be.
I still do not like deus ex machina in my kinos.
It always seems like an easy way out

I might have to see it again, but his dialogue is significantly reduced

>Why does God suffer with humanity instead of ending the suffering
Have you really never heard the Gospel before? Jesus went to the cross to pay for the inequities of mankind. No man is worthy to present himself before God, and so God took mercy on man by sending Jesus to die in our stead. While he was teaching as a man, he taught people how to love one another the way that God expressed his love for us by sending Jesus. It's the most true and inspiring sense of love and goodness that one can feel and aspire to follow. That's the reason why people stick to their faith so adamantly, because there is nothing of this world as good, kind, and loving as Jesus.

He's seen in the next scene having dialogue with Ferrera going through Christian objects, and then the confession scene

The voice of Jesus is Ciaran Hinds, the head priest Driver and Garfield talk to at the start of the film.

Interpret that as you may.

I know what the Bible is. Don't really care for it though since most of my country is pretty apatheist.

>Jesus went to the cross to pay for the inequities of mankind.

Why...

>No man is worthy to present himself before God, and so God took mercy on man by sending Jesus to die in our stead

But God created us and made all the rules? Why are we not worthy? Why did God who created us made us by default unworthy? Why send his son, that's also him from my understanding, there's no reason for that happening?Why does somebody need to die for our sin? Sins being rules that he made up and decided to force upon us despite the fact that he knew we weren't able to follow.

Sins aren't rules that he made up, it is anything counter to his nature

Despite what everyone says God can't do "everything." He can't be cruel. He can't be vindictive. He can't enjoy pain. He can't manipulate. He can't do evil.

Whether it's literal or not (most likely not) the story of Adam and Even shows us that mankind chose to disobey God, and every person at some point in their life grows up to choose to disobey God as well. Jesus is God's mercy, bringing unity between him and his creation that chooses repeatedly to reject him.

I believe that God made it this way because there is more joy in salvation and more of a genuine relationship this way, rather than him creating Eden and everything just stays hunky dory. God also gets to show us how he is both just and merciful, so we then get to know why we want to follow him.

This stems from the base of me seeing Jesus as presented in the Gospel, knowing that his teaching and life are the most inspiring things that can possibly ever be, and then attributing God's nature to the rest of the"story"

The question of "why?" Seems silly to me as a question for a non believer, because how does that effect how true it is? Either Jesus is God and his story is true, or it's not. It's not like you can decide what God should or shouldn't be like, and then judge Jesus based on that. No man has that power. God either is or isn't.

>Sins aren't rules that he made up, it is anything counter to his nature

He's omnipotent isn't he? His nature is whatever he chooses it to be


>I believe that God made it this way because there is more joy in salvation and more of a genuine relationship this way, rather than him creating Eden and everything just stays hunky dory. God also gets to show us how he is both just and merciful, so we then get to know why we want to follow him.


Does he show mercy to those who die while not believing in him? What of the millions of tortured soul in hell? What does god do for them with all his omnipotence?

>The question of "why?" Seems silly to me as a question for a non believer, because how does that effect how true it is?

Because it's an unnecessary act that we're told to be thankful for when it only happened because God chose to make us imperfect or because his all powerful ego doesn't deem us worthy.

Do you think it would have gone down the same with Protestantism? It seems like a lot of the issues faced in the movie have to do with Catholics dependency on idols and absolving sins and such. Stepping on graven images shouldn't be a big deal. Neither should anything physical like rosary beads. And the significance of the priests as a whole since they are believed to be capable of absolving sins. If the emphasis on the importance of the priests was not there perhaps people would not have been tortured just to get them to apostatize.

I think the story wouldn't really have existed if it wasn't for Catholicism.

That's really interesting actually.

I thought the voice was like the vision of Jesus in the water - intentionally ambiguous as to whether it was a divine sign or not. We see things through his eyes in these scenes - they are not an objective portrayal of reality. At that point in the story Rodriguez obviously believes the silence is being broken, but as viewers we are allowed to be sceptics as much as anyone else present at the scene. Scorsese isn't saying Rodriguez is making contact with God, only that he thinks he is. He thus retains the sense of silence and doubt for his viewers.

Oh it actually is? I thought I was crazy because it didn't say so on IMDB.

Isn't this story fiction?

Yeah it does. Though I recall the passage being ambiguous as to whether Christ was really speaking or if it's Rodrigues trying to justify apostasizing to himself.

Is Adam Driver good in this?

>watching movies about Christianity

I knew this board had shit taste, but Jesus Christ.

I got that from watching the movie and I haven't read the book. Good job Marty I guess.

>Though I recall the passage being ambiguous as to whether Christ was really speaking or if it's Rodrigues trying to justify apostasizing to himself

Just like in the movie.

Why are gaytheists so insecure?

Does it offend you so much that one movie depicts Jesus as actually existing?

Does it distract you too much from the avalanche of anti-Christian movies Hollywood shits out every year?

Poor babies.

They hate God.

Define Anti-christian.

Now that's an autistic comment if I ever saw one.

Hell's door is locked from the inside.

They should have ended the movie with a voice over of Morgan Freeman Jesus saying "It's okay, y'all. I forgave him!"

>He's omnipotent isn't he? His nature is whatever he chooses it to be
God's nature is not something so mundane like the definition of omnipotent or someone who takes choices like a human. God is, and is representation of everything. He is armony and equilibrium. A similar idea is preached on Budhism and to some extent in Christianity when God is described has being all.
>Does he show mercy to those who die while not believing in him? What of the millions of tortured soul in hell? What does god do for them with all his omnipotence?
Hell itself is an ambiguous concept, old testament didn't had a hell and later the idea of hell was just a place for sinners that was more similar to a void. Modern hell is a depiction of different interpretations being the most important the one from Dante.
God feeling mercy for them would be dragging his state to something human. God doesn't feel mercy but neither hate. Once again, he is.
>Because it's an unnecessary act that we're told to be thankful for when it only happened because God chose to make us imperfect or because his all powerful ego doesn't deem us worthy.

I wouldn't say thankful but just like the rest of the universe we exist, there's biological reasons and explanations to how we came here but there's isn't a meaning behind us. There's biologic instincts and a nature to our behavior but besides that the real reason behind us is unknown. We form part of something bigger like everything but we don't know what that is or why it is. It just is.

Yes. Unfortunately there are a lot of points where they split up and the camera follows Garfield.

I bet that guy got tons of ass

youtube.com/watch?v=pCKwtUXyU1k&t=1s

it was an easy way out and you are right to be disappointed. It does betray the title and the point of the movie.
Just maybe if the movie had established that garfield was going crazy and snapped, then it would make sense for Jesus talking to him to have an ambiguous feel based on whether it was real or not. Such a thing was never established though, and garfield was never outright tortured by anything but guilt. they never starved him or hurt him personally, just a handful of villagers now and then.

there's one scene an hour before he steps on the plaque when he sees himself as jesus in the puddle, but that's the only hint of craziness and was way before in the movie (besides him believing in a god of course)

Probably, its the reason the dutch where allowed to trade with the shogunate after Christianity (catholocism) was banned also it helped they also took part in the suppression of the last major catholic rebellion at shahabara in 1637.

Shimabara, fuck phone typing

le hilarious fedora sir meme XD ahahaha.

Scorsese isn't a hack. Endo, who wrote the book is hack, if anyone is, because that's exactly what happens there too. When I read the book and watched the movie, I assumed that it was Rodrigues having a theological realization after all his self-doubt.

>God's nature is not something so mundane like the definition of omnipotent or someone who takes choices like a human. God is, and is representation of everything. He is armony and equilibrium

You know in French we call that:"parler pour ne rien dire". Talking to say nothing. I feel like you haven't explained anything beyond just saying "No, it's different".

>God feeling mercy for them would be dragging his state to something human. God doesn't feel mercy but neither hate

So god from your interpretation. Who doesn't feel mercy, empathy, hate, frustration and that doesn't chose to do things but simply does them is more like a machine than a human.


>but there's isn't a meaning behind us.

We can agree on that. The only meaning behind our existence is the one we give ourselves.

>i-its just a meme r-right?

...

took this one irl. But I thought it was just an online meme though.

I think that part is "Reaching out" to those who believe in the Christianity even under the agonizing circumstances. So I say have the particular part is good idea, user.

I also have read the book, & I thought the story itself is pretty similar to "Hearts Of Darkness" of Joseph Conrad. After going through what appears to the end of the world, what they find at the end of journey is "WHAT !?". I think your take is getting a bit too much side of religious as the perfect belief.