Federalisation of the EU

What is your opinion about it?
I feel like it would be a good idea, but I'm an ignorant fuck so feel free to tell me what you think would be the advantages/disadvantages of it if it were to actually happen

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_Relating_to_the_Status_of_Refugees
twitter.com/AnonBabble

it's a shit but will happen
enforced by the eu army comply or die

Used to be anti-EU but after Russian retardation in Ukraine and the election of Trump I have become pro EU enough to support federalization. Europe is alone in the world and that means we need to be able to stand on our own and defend against foreign threats. And that means becoming stronger, more integrated union politically and militarily.

I want a federation between France, Belgium and Quebec (Canada) and why not the United States, Ireland and UK.

I don't like Italians for example and I don't want to be in a federation with them.

EU is a future super power and theres nothing brainlets can do about it

Thank you user couldn't said that better
I am 100% agree with you
I am not OP though

This irrational notion of the truly independent and self-reliant nation state is a pipe dream that hasn't had and never will have any basis in historical reality. There always are and will be economical and political alliances and dependencies.

We are living in an age where single Chinese cities each have more inhabitants than a single country of half of all current EU member states. If we want to stay relevant for longer, protect our way of life and democratic values, and at least offset some of the negative consequences globalization will have on our continent then there is no other alternative than to pool our political and economic power.

No one is claiming that the political set-up of the EU is without flaws but it's the best shot we have to build a framework that balances the interests of all member states and people. It provides shared institutions that give voice and vote.

If we don't achieve unity then Europe is going to be once more a divided continent where Europeans get pitied against each other by other far away super powers like it used to be the case during the cold war.

That's why I'm a firm federalist.

hello, /r/europe
where's your Bulgarian friend?

t. the one that are not in agreement with me are shills

Hello r/Donald don't you have to shill for a government that has been shown to be compromised by foreign agents?

I'm against it because no EU institution is democratic.

Also even if they become more democratic, some bureaucrat in Brussels will soon become entirely corrupted.

Just look at the US government.

>dude Drumpf lmao
>dude I'm from the fourth largest economy in the world but my country isn't relevant unless it annexes Estonia lmao

Hmm?

You write words that seem like a language but they don't make any sense? Bulgarian friend? /r/europe?

>saving Easter toads from other sites despite them not even being relevant outside of one board on Sup Forums
imagine wanting to fit in this badly on a fucking shit board like this, get a life

If you have a person lobbying for a foreign government paid by a foreign government without disclosing all ofthis then you have a foreign agent.

Now if said person acquires a senior position within your national government then your government has been effectively compromised. It's not rocket science, you know. Why aren't you outraged by foreign states meddling in your internal affaires. Do you still have the audacity to call yourself a patriot?

kind of ironic for drumpfkin to cry about shills considering they almost never stopped spamming less than a year ago

At this point americans became only a former shadow of themselves
All the supposed ideologies of the USA are now in crumble and the worst things is that you people are deluded enough to think you have freedom

>you have foreign states meddling in your affairs
>now here's why my country should be in charge of your countries

I support it because I fear China way more than the EU and suspect the US and EU would be on the same side if tensions with China were to arise in the future.

>hates Sup Forums
>he’s currently posting on Sup Forums
Have you considered going back to Sup Forumsddit?

>What is your opinion about it?
a fucking disaster if it's not accompanied by massive changes in the policies and power balance, aka things that aren't gonna happen.

>Just look at the US government.

This.
You can kiss the "democratic" part of democratic socialism goodbye.

It's not in charge when you share democratic institutions. Is California in charge of New Hampshire according to you? You prefer a European continent with a completely free and unshackled Germany that is not subject to the oversight of shared European Institutions? You realize that this would result in a Europe which would be even more dominated by German interest enforced by economical, political and monetary duress?

>loves Sup Forums so much he can't even save images from here that get reposted eighty times every day and gets them from some weird 9gag knockoff site instead
wtf I'm alt-right Nazi redditor now

>Is California in charge of New Hampshire according to you?

Not the guy you are responding to, but other Americans complain about California pushing their loony SJW politics on the rest of the nation plenty.

Right now the EU and China are on the same page when it comes to most important policy issues like free trade or climate policy, foreign policy(Iran) , though.

>You prefer a European continent with a completely free and unshackled Germany that is not subject to the oversight of shared European Institutions? You realize that this would result in a Europe which would be even more dominated by German interest enforced by economical, political and monetary duress?
this just sounds like you're threatening everybody

>Is California in charge of New Hampshire according to you
yes, it's actually very commonly complained about and you would know it if you actually spent time here and didn't just come here on your little raids

He's right, though. The entire purpose of the EU behind all the smoke and chaff is to attempt to constrain Germany. Without the EU (where members are artificially levelled) it would be even worse. The whole problem is that there is no solution to the German Question.

>it's just sounds like you are threating
Yes, nation states have the tendency to pursue their national interest. Welcome to the real world, kiddo.

cant wait for the consolidation of europe

>free trade or climate policy, foreign policy
LOL, no.

Yes of course, lmao. Any exporting nation in the relies on trade for its wealth so their goal is to make trade as free as possible. That's why the EU shares this view with China and Japan.

Also China has an interest to be the leading innovator of climate friendly technologies.

I wouldb't ve so sure

>Yes, nation states have the tendency to pursue their national interest. Welcome to the real world, kiddo.
if you're better off without the EU than why were you arguing for full federalization two posts ago?

I hate it but There is nothing I could do to stop it. Spaniards are 100% in favour of these shit and there is not a single political party or movements which is against the EU, though I do not understand why they are in favour of the EU when We could have been better by our own.

Because I'm not a nationalist, duh?

>Right now the EU and China are on the same page when it comes to most important policy issues like free trade or climate policy, foreign policy(Iran) , though.

Yeah, all that is more important than the whole authoritarian government thing and human rights stuff lmao

Numerous democratic governments toppled by American agencies, several wars of aggressions. Campaigns deliberately targeting civilian populations. Illegal kidnappings, secret torture prisons all over the globe. A mass intelligence and surveillance apparatus. The current track record of America's commitment to human rights everyone.

One day historians would write the true history of the "great" America

>What is your opinion about it?

I unironically and literally support it.

this doesn't have anything to do with nationalism, it just sounds like you're actively making arguments for something you actually believe and acknowledge to be a bad thing for your country. Either you're an extremist ideologue, or you're trying to cloak your imperialist ambitions in selfless benevolence.

>authoritarian government thing and human rights
>t. USA

you're really activating our almonds, please continue with these razor sharp critiques of the US

China has roughly double the co2 emissions as the US, and a smaller % of their total energy comes from renewable sources.

Way to fall for virtue signaling garbage.

>bad thing for your country

Black and white much? It's possible to support policy that is aimed to have a better net gain in the long term.

>What is your opinion about it?

I'm against it.

> would be the advantages/disadvantages of it if it were to actually happen

We're just too different to make one country, different languages, cultures, history, level of development, values etc. It would be destroyed after a while, the current EU is on the verge of collapse after all.

I'd rather return to loose economic union (mainly the free-trade zone and Schengen area with free movement of goods, capital, services and people), like EEA, without the political union and the "union of values", because this is bullshit.

Why act like a child? Please state your opinions in a civilised manner if you're in such a disagreement, I would honestly be glad to hear them

>the current EU is on the verge of collapse after all.
I agree with you but this is silly. If anything Brexit seems to have made other countries more wary and cautious about this sort of thing.

and why do you think the situation would be different in the future? Population decline? What exactly?

>EEA, without the political union and the "union of values", because this is bullshit.

Translation: we want to share the wealth but not the responsibility.

Maybe naked German domination of Europe would be better for German nationals than the EU is but the latter is morally better because it is peaceful and voluntary. Also what is good for Europe is also good for Finns, Germans, French etc. Not maybe in as great amount as naked aggression would bring but that is debatable.

There is nothing strange for a European to support EU rather than his own nation naked nationalistic goals is all I'm saying.

the only solution to a united europe is one unified under french leadership

Americans should be ignored in these threads they have literally nothing to contribute to the discussion

why are you equating support for the EU with EU federalism? I support heavy restrictions on the power of the federal government in the US but that doesn't mean I want my state to leave.

as opposed to you who literally hasn't contributed anything to discussion and entered the thread entirely to make a shitpost

>I agree with you but this is silly. If anything Brexit seems to have made other countries more wary and cautious about this sort of thing.

It's not only about Brexit, a lot of EU countries are already fed up with the EU putting its long nose into their home affairs and telling them what to do, what values they should believe in.

What kind of responsibility, I don't understand it. Why would anyone be responsible for our political system or our migration policy? It's our business, we don't need anyone to worry about us and we don't ask anyone to help us in this matter. If Germany wants to take millions of refugees - it's your choice, we don't tell you what to do, just don't force us to accept them too.

Well articulated
I like your arguments.

Honestly from outside the EU we don't get why you guys keep tearing each other and hating on the institutions. Currently the commission is ripping everybody z second hole through trade agreements thanks to Trump desertion
Without much knowledge of your internal struggles it seems that Europe is doing a lot right and it gives us envy.
I wish latinoamerican countries could build something similar to protect us from the US and China.

You mean, that you need the "federalist EU" so Germany could be an empire and a relevant global political player. Because no one but Germany benefits from European federalism.

it would be a good thing if it were only the benelux + France + Germany + Italy

obviously in Poland this is indeed the case, because of recent events. But is there even a single party there with seats in the legislature that supports leaving the EU? It really seems like the Visegrad countries don't hate the concept of the EU, but just have a different vision for what it should be than what it is presently.

From my perspective this is what it is about.
China has its own vision of what the world should be and how things should turn to its own advantage.
If the EU and the US agree on something they both weight more than China and a compromise at the advantage of these progressive forces can be had.
If the EU is disorganized or not on par with the US China will have its way.

Globally, EU is rich, with a high degree of protection of it's citizen and high focus on inequalities, may it be class or gender etc. Very progressive laws regarding environment etc.
I know a lots of things could go better and people are unhappy with the institutions.
But from a failed Latino state that let the US and the oligarchy prey on the poor while letting organized crime roam with impunity, it does look like paradise!

It is ultimately what I hope for. China and India pulled it off despite arguably having greater internal divisions pre unification, both culturally and politically. However we might need to shed some dead weight, like Poland or Hungary, that's why I like Macrons idea of a "two speed" Europe. Let those that can see the benefits of greater cooperation, especially in security and trade/ movement of people get the show on the road, and let the ethnobabbies sulk in their own isolationist pig stye.

Yes I have, I contributed by spreading the truth about americans, I don't think they post with european interests at heart.
Anyway I believe the EU should be a 'family of nations' with no barriers between them characterized by our love of liberty, democracy and justice where EU citizens feel at home. I have no interest in building some sort of EU superpower rather I want an EU that can stand up for this ideal of a prosperous family of nations against malicious foreign influences that seek to tear us apart. We should also be a relatively neutral union that will promote its ideals without resorting to imperialism like the Americans do.
I also believe we should promote a european civic culture, we have barely any knowledge of european parties, we don't see any debates between EU politicians before elections, we don't often know the internal issues of fellow EU countries et cetera. The EU will always feel distant as long as we don't cultivate a unified european civic culture.

nice job hastily typing out an actual opinion because you knew I was right

>But is there even a single party there with seats in the legislature that supports leaving the EU? It really seems like the Visegrad countries don't hate the concept of the EU, but just have a different vision for what it should be than what it is presently.

Yeah, you're right, we aren't against a European union, we're just against the current European Union, that is focused on so-called "values" and it's more like a charity than a proper union aimed at stimulating economic growth in member states. We do realize that we should maintain strong economic ties with Europe, but we're not so happy about the political union, because we just have different views and needs. For instance, western Europe will never understand our attitude to Russia, and we will never understand how you can accept millions of uneducated muslims in your country just because they're poor and you want to help them. And I don't see how it is wrong, why should be firmly believe that the EU should be also a political union? If you'd told the European politicians from the 1950s, who created the European Coal and Steel Community, that this community would look like it looks now, they would have withdrawn their support from the idea, I'm pretty sure about this.

It baffles me how Poland is the country that has most benefitted of the EU, both through free circulation of citizens and direct aid, and yet is the most critical voice there.
>But muh refugees
How much did actually get to Poland?

>no one but Germany benefits

That's quite a lot coming from the primary beneficiary of the biggest wealth transfer in human history, haha.

@82514486(You)
That was my opinion all along which I have cultivated throughout the years, so was the opening statement and I still stand by it.

>How much did actually get to Poland?

No one, because of our stance on this issue. If our government hadn't been so firm about it, we would have to deal with thousands of black "engineers" and "doctors" raping our women now.

>It baffles me how Poland is the country that has most benefitted of the EU, both through free circulation of citizens and direct aid

That's why we're not against the economic union and free movement area, didn't you read my posts?

>and yet is the most critical voice there.

It's only about the political union (including the military) and "shared values".

We benefit from the economic influence of the EU, but not from the political one. Poland wants to have an independent foreign policy.

what, so they're not allowed to have an opinion on things because they had the misfortune to be destroyed and are now in a position of need? Poland has the most moderate and reasonable view of the EU of any current member state besides Sweden.

Opposed.

I would prefer the Swiss confederacy model (+exit option, which I think is something Swiss cantons don't have) over the USA federation model.

Yeah, that's what I said. You are happy to take the money but break your contractual agreements and run away from responsibilities. Please tell me how is the nation of Poland any different from the supposed welfare leeches you tend to despise. I'd laugh to hear that. I can't fathdom a better example for the definition of hypocrisy right now.

>over the USA federation model.
Why do you think that's what the EU is currently doing? In fact the EU parliament is actually allowed to create laws for a lot of things that the US congress is constitutionally forbidden to, which I actually find quite shocking.

You're too irrelevant to be able to pull it off.

Sorry to break it to you but Switzerland has a centralized federal power and the last civil war they fought about 200 years ago also was about the extent of these powers, similar to the conflict in the US

this but unironically

>run away from responsibilities

Well, let's imagine a situation like that - you got fired from your job and you live on a dole. One day, a black man knocks to your door and tells you, that he will live in your house, together with you now. When you tell him, that you never agreed to it, he responses, that you seem to break your contractual agreement and run away from responsibilities. When you ask, what kind of responsibilities he means, because no one told you that you would have to host a nigger in your house for this welfare you get and if only you'd known, you'd have never taken this welfare, the nigger starts screeching like an autist, throws you on the ground, shits on your head, rapes your wife and children and kicks you out of your home.

Something like that.

The EU parliament hasn't really created any law since the EU parliament doesn't possess legislative initiative.

Absolutely retarded idea. It's like using an ox, horse, donkey and a goat to pull a carriage.

>When you tell him, that you never agreed to it

Why are you lying to him?

>"two speed" Europe

This is what I support too. EU needs to evolve peacefully with a concensus. Two speed Europe enables that giving countries free range on what they want EU to be for them. Let the Eastern Europe enjoy gibs and hating on foreigners while more federalist minded countries can integrate. Everyone wins.

I get your point.
The thing is, I believe the Muslim narrative is overplayed in Poland and has been completely deformed.

The reality is that millions of people did get in the EU seeking political asylum, fleeing the barbaric Islamic State. These overflowed the costs of Greece and Italy mainly. While Italy did try to control things a bit, Greece was much too happy to fuck with the rest of the EU and literally put up his lines to bring everybody straight to the northern border without any control.
Obviously there were also a bunch of economic migrants that wanted to get in too. And because there wasn't any control they could go through.
Germany threw its guilt trip and opened the gates, bringing even more pressure.

It is exactly because there is no political Union and every country can do what it want that all this crisis happened
An orderly coordinated response from the whole EU to separate people seeking jobs and welfare from real refugees in need of humanitarian help would have been a success and avoided all the disaster.

There is no Marxist Jew in brussel trying to lower the purity of Poland by forxing it to accept bilions of salafist terrorists.
Some countries needed help to deal temporarily with the crisis and it seemed little to ask after all the solidarity.
Just my humble opinion from an outside perspective.

I do believe that Poland is in the right regarding Russia and that Germany is playing a dangerous game though.

don't nitpick you nigger
you know what I mean

Could anyone show me which article of the EU treaties provides that every country that gets EU funds is obliged to take and feed black refugees from third world countries?

It was the Americans that literally created the EU
Washington has always been aggressively pro-European

I don't really understand. I legal body that doesn't possess legislative initiative doesn't make any laws because that's the fucking definition of legislative initiative.

I understand Poland's qualms to an extent, being that I'm from one of the countries that had to be under troika and felt how tight the EU can squeeze you.

But consider the following: if this country wasn't affiliated to the EU, what moral imperative would EU countries have to support it's development, more than they would have to any other nation-state? And why would they be obligated to support any nation-state they felt was betraying their values?

Both EU ascension and EU exit are decisions by the national governments. National governments are subsidized by the EU, under the presumption of the generality of governments that make up the EU that each government will conform to the general consensus and the Copenhagen criteria. Poland wouldn't have entered the EU if the EU thought it would've start walking back on it's compromises. It's why Turkey was pushed back from ascension.

Only if it has significant sway over it like it used to, I want a Europe without that sway.

>The reality is that millions of people did get in the EU seeking political asylum, fleeing the barbaric Islamic State. These overflowed the costs of Greece and Italy mainly.

What do the US guards do when they see a horde of illegal immigrants from Mexico trying to cross the border:

1. welcome them with flowers
2. shoot to them

You still wonder why Poland prefers to maintain political ties with the USA more than with Germany?

federalization is a pipe dream
prepare for the asian century

The Polish government agreed to the refugee deal like all other EU member states(Britain and Denmark posess opt-outs) and then they turned around and said they won't honor it.

>What is your opinion about it?
I’m already mostly anti-EU and I think federalization would exacerbate all the issues with the current EU while yielding little-to-no additional benefit.
As far as I can tell allowing power to further consolidate in Brussels’s/Luxemburg’s undemocratic oligarchy will just to remove the last remaining vestiges of accountably remaining in the European leadership, a leadership that has demonstrated during the Brexit ordeal to not be above petty sabotage and obstruction.

Pursuing your rational self-interest is not petty sabotage and obstruction. The EU would be glad if the UK would do the same but right now the UK itself doesn't even know where its interest are lying.

It won't happen. Maybe a nordcuck union would be more feasible but they'll be far from relevant.

We did not, we wouldn't know that the EU would be ever that stupid to act praeter legem.

If a government has power to issue law, does it mean, that it can do anything it wants? Could it legally introduce nazism in Germany? No, because there is the Radbruch formula. This decision of the EU on the refugee question is not fair and we aren't obliged to accept it.

>black refugees

oh no, not BLACK refugees lmao you poles are so fucking racist

>Could anyone show me which article of the EU treaties provides that every country that gets EU funds is obliged to take and feed black refugees from third world countries?
No but I can show you the UN article (signed in Geneva by the Allies of WW2 btw which means USA & puppets) which *does* force the EU and everyone around us to do exactly that:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_Relating_to_the_Status_of_Refugees

Yes, we are. We accept Ukrainian refugees in millions and it's not a big deal for us, so we're not xenophobes, in contrary to what German media wants to present us like. We just don't want to accept refugees that simply won't fit in.

I don't oppose a central authority, I'm talking about the way very big decisions are made. 1) A first draft is prepared by experts in the federal administration.
2) This draft is presented to a large number of people in a formalized kind of opinion poll: Cantonal governments, political parties as well as many non-governmental organisations and associations of the civil society may comment on the draft and propose changes.
3) The result is presented to dedicated parliamentary commissions of both chambers of the federal parliament, discussed in detail behind closed doors and finally debated in public sessions of both chambers of parliament. Members of parliament do take into account the results of step 2, because if the fail to do so, step 4 will be inevitable.
4) The electorate has a veto-right on laws: If anybody is able to find 50,000 citizens signing a form demanding for a referendum within 3 months, a referendum must be held. Laws do only need to find a majority of the national electorate to pass a referendum, not a majority of cantons. Referendums on more than a dozen laws per year are not unusual in Switzerland.

The swiss are much more involved at every level. In the EU, right now, nearly no-one votes in EU parliament elections, they just trust that their nationally elected governments to make all calls for them. Most EU citizens don't even get how the EU works. While in the USA people vote plenty in presidential elections because their executive is so proeminent, but most americans can't tell who their state governors and state representatives at the federal level are.

>be afraid of big empires
>solution is to create another empire out of countries which used to be empires themselves
Honestly, how retarded can EU shills get? It doesn't work and it won't work because there is no shared identity between inhabitants of Europe. At best, they just don't care about one another. At worst, they still hold grudges for the past.
Of course, those who would like the see federal union ignore the question of identity because they don't have any and don't want the "Europeans" to have any either because such people might stop paying taxes that feed them.