Portugalczycy of Sup Forums, please tell me everything about this guy. I know very little about Portuguese WW1-WW2 history so I never heard of him before, but the more I read up about him, the more fascinating he seems.
How is he generally perceived nowadays? A good guy, a bad guy, or a mixed bag? Do modern Portuguese politicians refer to him in any way?
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Many people like him, there is this Portuguese TV show where people had to pick their favorite Portuguese personality and he finished first. You can look it up on Youtube.
Not really as a monster, but definitely as an ultimately bad but competent guy who got things done.
I don't even think people are against his right wing ideas, just his authoritarian ones. Censorship and War were his downfall. Also, a shitty chair.
Nationalist, catholic, not so much militar, but intelectual, economist, anti-commie.
reached power after a nationalist coup in braga, and a march to lisbon, mussolni style... economic grow, stable finances, helped franco in the spanish civil war, neutral in the wwii.... repression against commies, no democracy, corporativism, fascist militias, in the late 60's colonial wars in africa agaisnt the commie afromovements that were supported by usa and ussr. and that's it. Had good things and bad things, but at least in those times Portugal (mainland) was close to be 100% native white...
This is somehow truth, but also if you say you like Salazar, you are called naziiiiiii and fascistttttt and raciiiiiiiist
dont understand how you can like a nigga who held portugal back so much
would have been waay richer without his retardedness
Maybe in a vacuum, but not next to Civil War Spain, or WWII.
he started out well.
Can you explain that Dutch user? Portugal already sucked in 19th century and 20th century.
That' s why some people have positive feelings towards him because the other guys specially in First Portuguese Republic probably sucked too much. It's a relative comparison.
>would have been waay richer
He graduated law and specialized economics, and turned Portuguese economy from an overdebted failure into a well functioning system with a solid budget surplus. Literacy greatly improved during his reign, and Portuguese standards of living went from below average to above average in comparison to other European countries. And his WW2 predictions were incredibly on point. How was he a retard according to you?
The concept of an authoritarian nationalist that did not side with Hitler and openly criticized his militarism and racial theories is pretty amazing to me. The guy is like a walking counter argument against projections of modern lefties.
>The guy is like a walking counter argument against projections of modern lefties.
Well, he was very anti-commie and held political prisoners for it.
That said, even the guys that defeated his regime (including both military and commies) have said that if it were today, they would've done it differently. And nobody ever puts into question his intentions.
For all his criticisms, he genuinely did what he thought was best for the country. He always put the country before a lot of things, and helped push for the modern idea of a quiet and reserved Portuguese, as he prized catholic and gentlemanly values.
>and openly criticized his militarism and racial theories is pretty amazing to me.
He never did that, at leat openly. In fact portuguese regime was obviously pro axis.
Nah, he was never anti-semitic or even anti-black as a principle.
His allegiance to the axis and the allies came and went, mostly in an effort to keep neutrality. He eventually declared national grievance over Hitler's death, but he did also cede the Lajes airbase to the alies, and we made a ton of dough selling wolfram to both parties.
He absolutely despised Franco, though.
That's why is fucked up that Portuguese polticians of Third Republic are proud of figures of First Portuguese Republic or led to their implantation or some meme monarchists are proud of Constitutional monarchy etc and blame Regicide and 5th October Revolution.
If their regimes sucked so bad, really bad. For example, end of days of Monarchy the last monarchist govt led by liberal party appointed by King D. Manuel II and for 1st Republic to be replaced by Militar Dictatorship the following description
>The sixteen years of the First Republic saw nine presidents and 44 ministries, and have been described as consisting of "continual anarchy, government corruption, rioting and pillage, assassinations, arbitrary imprisonment and religious persecution"
Plus some dictatorships one year in 1st Republic - like Sidonista regimen and others , participation in WWI - second greatest defeat of Portuguese Armed Forces in its history in Batle of La Lys / Operation Georgette - an authentic massacre and more debts from this participation in WWI and despise/disregard of sucessive 1st Republican about the participation of war and soldiers, even when the war finished they got lousy war reparations/pensions in poverty.
In contemporary Portugal, regimens fall or get sucessfully couped more by the inaction and disagregrattion of decaying incumbent of regimen of that time than by the actions of the putschists,
Then I guess Wikipedia lied to me
>He absolutely despised Franco
How come? Didn't he support him in Spanish civil war?
>He absolutely despised Franco, though
Nah. They got their divergences and there's always precaution in the relations between the Iberians countries.
youtube.com
abc.es
>Then I guess Wikipedia lied to me
They always try to moderate everything related to this kind of subjects. For example Tolkien or Lovecraft will be presented as the racists they were, but also "from other perspective, they can be considered as antiracists (*quotes some modern leftist propagandist*)"
So yeah better watch out.
Who?
No really i want to know.
>in 1937, Salazar published a book wherein he criticized the Nuremberg Laws passed in 1935 in Germany, considering it regrettable that German nationalism was "wrinkled by racial characteristics so well marked," which had imposed "the legal point of view, the distinction between citizens and the subject – and this at the risk of dangerous consequences."
If it is a quote from Salazar's own book, the Wikipedia ir right and the user above is wrong.
I like him too.
I thought he just did not like Franco.Franco also did some horrible shit (most could be justifiable)
He knew Franco had plans to annex Portugal, and he considered him a barbarian, and not the gentleman leader he (Salazar) was.
Keep in mind that one of the reasons we did not join the allies (keep in mind the Portuguese/English alliance could compel us, if they asked), was because we (and the English) knew that Spain would then join the Nazis and we'd have a peninsular war again.
Salazar helped him because the was fighting the commies, but he did not like him at all.
Salazar wanted neutrality, stability and christian values for everyone (because he himself followed those), not war. Unless it was against the commies, of course.
The "Portugal não é um país pequeno" was partly a warning to Spain not to think of doing anything funny and reminding them we still had resources.
Well, portugal had no problems with minorities at those times, mainland Portugal was close to be 100 percent white-portuguese. In the colonies it was a different story.
About his regime, the core of it was without any doubt axis shiffted, not only by ideology, but also by alliances, like in the spanish civil war. And i agree he did what he had to to to keep portugal out of the war,but by ideology of course he was much more close to italy and germany. Also 1000 portuguese volunteers fought in the blue division in the eastern front against the communists.
look at pic the on his desk, yea,no doubt, mussolini there
Wikipedia, i always question what is there, always, it's all controlled by leftists
The only thing that Hitler and Mussolini did right was to help Franco. The only thing I do not like about the Generalissimo is that it hung a lot to the axis
If I am not mistaken both signed a treaty to leave Iberia out of the war.
That's only small actions to appease the National-Socialist regime in Germany and Fascist Regime in Italia reminding them "I follow you please don't invade me" When it started WWII .
Only people that don't think fair or don't think all, at that photo or that videos of training must understand it is more theatre and propaganda than realpolitik and different what happens backstage.
Funny note: He changed that photo of Mussolini to the incumbent Pope after the start of WWII
You're partially right about the gentleman. But he didn't "absolutely " despised him as you exagerated before. The RTVE documentary also takls about, that is from an academic background, Franco is overly militaristic not academic, Franco thesis was how to invade Portugal in 1928, and there were sugestion even from Falange propaganda to erase the Raia, Portuguese- Spanish border and annex us. Plus some sugestions that Franco made to Hitler, etc.
>but he did not like him at all.
And based on what you claim such?
youtube.com
without Salazar we all know Franco couldn´t reach power in Spain.
It's hard to talk about ideology because Portugal was one of three colonial countries (the other two being the continental masses that are USA and USSR), so we had a very different paradigm. Angola/Mozambique had been Portuguese for literally 500 years.
I don't think Salazar hated black people for their skin colour, but just because they were uneducated savages. If a black dude were educated here (unheard of) and behaved as a christian gentleman, he'd have no problems with him, I reckon. Heck, he'd probably make him poster boy so all the others followed the example. He was an intellectual and a pragmatist, not a blind nationalist.
Plus, he still had plans of educating them (Luanda began construction of a university and had the largest library in Africa thanks to him), but he did so very slowly because he knew that wasting too much money in infrastructure there would mean giving it away once they became independent.
Obviously wasting money and lives in war there ended up the same way, but I don't think he expected to lose them (and we did win 2/3 of them and tie the other front).
Fair enough. But he definitely did not like the dude.
He just hated commies more. Franco did like Salazar. Everyone did, he was a very polite and collected man of few words and undeniable good behaviour. Which is why he's always the odd one out when it comes to European dictators.
I don't think it was a treaty, but a tacit understanding. Portugal was still a huge centre of espionage for both parties, and Spain saw reinforcements in Guernica, neither of those would've been let go under an official treaty, I don't think. But I could be wrong.
Thanks for clarifications. Very interesting figure, especially in the context of today's political situation in Europe.
Salazar also to appeasing to those future Axis regimens was overtly Anti-Communist. Sending voluntaries Viriatios to join to Spanish Blue Division is more to kill the Commies than anything. Salazar is ultimately anti-communist than pro-Axis or Pro-Franco, etc.
You must understand that - that its actions - like helping logistically Finland - Continuation War was more to contain the commie threat back then.
One question: did Portugal leave the colonies in Africa on the right track just like they did in Brazil?
>That's only small actions to appease the National-Socialist regime in Germany and Fascist Regime in Italia reminding them "I follow you please don't invade me" When it started WWII .
hum? what small actions? salazar regime was older than ns germany regime. The connectionand good relations was because of the shared ideology, nationalism, and also too much corporativism like in italy. In matter of fact, just for example, the gestapo and the SS traveled to Portugal on purpose to be trained by the Portuguese political police, the PIDE, tactics of interrogation and espionage
I'm the one defending him here, but keep in mind that censorship, political prisoners and war were stupid-ass ideas that both hurt his people and came back to bite him (or his regime) in the ass.
And the country. Heck, the lefty backlash we experienced after '74 has hurt the country a fuckton. The decolonisation was bound to happen, but it occurred idiotically. Portugal lost a ton of money, and the richest diamond/oil families came back with nothing. We have virtually no old-money besides agriculture-based one.
We still don't have right-wing named parties because of it, and right-wing is still seen as a very bad thing, because people can't disassociate it from authoritarianism. We don't have any libertarian parties which we desperately need (our state is way too large for our own good, this isn't an American libertarianism meme).
Luanda was called "Paris of Africa", Lourenço Marques (now Maputo) was also great. Now it's all turned to shit.
We were starting shit, but they went down into civil war right after (funded by the US, USSR and China which we fought, no less), so it was just shitty. Like most of Africa.
You have no much of an ideia have you? Salazar regime supported ns germany always till he understood they were going lose the war.
you should read
Obviously here they say that the Portuguese are responsible for the shit that our country is (an absurd affirmation) and they say the same thing about other countries colonized by Portugal.
The fact is that you are the settlers who most wanted to see the colonies prosper.
>and war
Could you elaborate?
Those who helped the Nazis most were the British and French who were afraid of resolving the situation in the beginning. Their procasting is the main cause of WWII if they had taken action as soon as the German army was enlarged we would not have WWII
Bear in mind Salazar was a crafty son of a bitch and he didn't immediately take power after the coup as says. He was appointed minister of finances and through his control of the country's economy he garnered enough power to rise to supreme leader.
>the richest diamond/oil families came back with nothing
Except all the drugs they smuggled in that created a heroin epidemic in the impressionable youth that was desperate to break conventions. Or all the gibs the state gave them, which further crippled our economy and infrastructure.
Not him, but check out his image. War broke out in the colonies, funded mostly by URSS and the USA as, in my understanding, they were scared of Rhodesia, South Africa and Portugal becoming a regional power that could counterbalance either one of them. You could say the 1974 revolution and Portugal pulling back from the colonies was the tipping point that led to Rhodesia and eventually South Africa to fall apart. Personally I'm glad that war is over and no more Portuguese lives were lost.
>Also 1000 portuguese volunteers fought in the blue division in the eastern front against the communists.
They were called the Green Legion i think, a branch inside the Blue division. Mostly Viriatos and members of legião portuguesa, hardcore ones
It is small actions. what . Shared ideology - doesn't matter. Germany annexed The Federal State of Austria that was already under a right-wing authoritarian regime.
Portugal didn't join the Anti-Comintern Pact, joined the war, etc.
One thing is supporting through neutrality. Plus you're right in 1943 when he knew that the Axis
were going to lose the war he give those concessions to Allies: to install a airbase Azores etc.
>The fact is that you are the settlers who most wanted to see the colonies prosper.
Heh, I wouldn't go that far. Being the first trans-continental colonisers, especially from such a small country, all we wanted to do was have a resource farm.
Obviously having better infrastructure here than there, this meant that most of the money came back here to where the noble families and the king actually lived.
With time, though, as regular people could become rich in plantations and slave farms there, it sort of began to shift, and you guys became much more powerful than the homeland and even got the king for a while, but it wasn't out of benevolence.
Luso-tropicalism (the idea that the Portuguese are nicer than other colonisers) came out of necessity for communicating and not reinventing the wheel everytime. We made pacts and alliances with Africans in exchange for translators and people who knew the local currents and coasts so that we could take larger steps towards India (which, fyi, is why the Portuguese always prised being able to speak more than one language, despite being very proud in Portuguese as a language for poetry).
I think the main falacy with Portuguese-hatred from the colonies (or indeed any colonies and their previous homelands), is that in 1821 we had 2m Portuguese (1m in Portugal and 1m in Brazil), and by 1822, we had the same 1m people responsible for Brazil becoming corrupt STILL in Brazil. They were Portuguese 1 year before, but now for some reason they blame the other 1m that never had anything to do with them (besides being even poorer).
We kept the name, but you guys were the corrupt slaveowners, not us.
That pic was related ans most of it. The colonial war cost us a lot of lives and money, all to lose the colonies at the end. The worst part in my view was that we had a ton of locals that helped out that knew better than communism that we just left behind to die.
>Germany annexed The Federal State of Austria that was already under a right-wing authoritarian regime.
That happneed because of shared language, also there was a poll for the ansluss in austria and the yes for the unity won.
This country only had two good moments: Brazil Empire and Military Regime (obviously uninformed and leftists say they were the worst)
We should have left the colonies much sooner, it was a bad ideia tokeep them, first because Portugal is a nation, european one, not a multiracial empire, second because those peoples diserve their own land. Third it is because of that, that we now face reverse colonization, in in a medium term we will be replaced if nothing changes by non-europeans, like france or england are being
>supported by Soviet Union, China, United States
wew lads
>That pic
white portugal against the world.
The last chapter lel
>white portugal
most of the troops were actually local Luso-Africans
what? you can´t read? just check the picture>148.000 european aka white - portuguese troops, that was the majority. Of course there was also natives(africanns) that cooperate with us.
I cannot, no.
I read that as 150 European and the other numbers as the non-Europeans, instead of a breakdown.
But whoever wrote it used a ; instead of a :.
what other number's? you have only there the conscripted portuguese people, not the afro-natives that cooperated with us.
That's what I'm saying. I misinterpreted the numbers in the left column as more people, as opposed to a listing of the theatres where the 150 were battling.
Leave me alone, I can't read.
Is Salazar a common name in Portugal? did Rowling name Slytherin after him?
It's uncommon, but not that rare. And yes, actually.
Mixed bag. Hardcore communists hate him. Underground right-wingers love him. Most people recognize are somewhere in between. Even the writer Saramago, that was a communist, recognized some merits in his mind.
The gist of it is that he ran a tight-budget, he was serious about Catholicism, wouldn't let go of the colonies (which were called ultramarine provinces, because he wanted to distance himself from the image of mean colonialist), was paranoid about communism, focused on trade within the empire too much without doing much for industry and so Portugal kept being a net importer despite autarchical pretensions, and apparently died thinking he was still in control (he bashed his head on the floor and was moved aside but kept receiving visits as if he was chief because people felt sorry for him).
It exists but not that common
lel
So much has been said already, so I'll just post an aesthetic pic.
good guy
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