>Be China in 1940s >USA+west literally completely saves their existence, at huge cost, by fighting and destroying imperial Japan >Only 5 years later China already fighting in a proxy war against the USA+west >To this day are very anti west, take any advantage to counter and scheme against the west
What the fuck is their problem? Seriously if the USA and others had just left Japan alone, they would have destroyed and colonised China, and probably would have done stuff that made the Nazi holocaust look like a petty crime. Why weren't/aren't they more grateful??
>at huge cost, To the Japanese maybe. Western powers treated the Pacific theater as a sideshow
Nicholas Garcia
China had been seriously fucked over by colonial powers (Opium wars, not being allowed to enter places in their own land) so of course they have healthy distrust of anybody who's not them. And even then, they don't seem to trust each other very much
Ian Kelly
>And even then, they don't seem to trust each other very much
You can probably blame the CCP for that.
Juan Adams
>le CCP ruined China No. Every shitty thing you see in China has always existed in China. The CCP is responsible for anything positive in China.
Alexander Hughes
Chinese saved China
China and Japan fought for 4+ years before the USA even entered WW2.
What the fuck are you smoking?
Also, France saved the USA in 1776-1783. Yet we defaulted and went to war with France in 1792-1795. Politics change and rulers change. Why exactly should a country owe another after decades?
Tyler Hill
>Cultural Revolution >Great Leap Forward >Terrible economic conditions >Isolating it from potential beneficial allies
Easton Sullivan
KMT was tull of murderous savages so the people naturally sided with the CCP. You also completely bailed on the KMT after Jaoan was defeated because the US thought all was lost yet they still managed to hold onto Taiwan.
Jackson Watson
>le CCP
Do you even have a fucking clue what KMT China looked like? Qing? A raped, disembodied, prolapsed shithole.
Chinese have NEVER lived a better life than they do today. When my grandparents were born, the average Chinese person lived to 36.
David Walker
>Chinese saved China lel
That's why they turned back the Japanese offensive in 1944, right? Won with a stunning counterattack and retook Nanjing all on their own?
Benjamin Miller
And yet China 1976 was far better than China 1949.
Do people not get that China 1849-1949 had endless starvation, got colonized, beaten by every foreign power, and nearly genocided by the Japanese?
I am not saying that Maoist China was a great place. Do not fucking strawman me.
Dylan Foster
>Cultural Revolution Chinese women used to be property that had their feet ritualistically destroyed. Confucianism serve authority and their parents. Intellectuals did nothing but review the same thousands of year old texts. The only thing bad about the Cultural Revolution was that there wasn't ten of them. >Great Leap Forward Terrible policy was nothing new to China. Luckily this was very temporary. >Terrible economic conditions Communist China has brought millions out of poverty and raised lifespan, perhaps one of the most monumental transitions in history. >Isolating it from potential beneficial allies China has never had allies anyway and never will.
Parker Adams
USA made this. Japan should have successfully modernized the whole Asia if USA didn't involve in WWII in Asia.
Noah Robinson
>be China >invade Vietnam with a million man army after they had just gotten finished fighting off a super power >get so irrevocably BTFO it isn't even taught in schools there >to this day they haven't managed to normalize relations with what should be their strongest ally Truly a paper T-I-G-E-R
Grayson Brooks
What am I smoking?? Japan had total technological , industrial, and organisational superiority over what was "China" at that point. If it wasn't for the West fighting Japan, they would have destroyed China more than they already did. They had already slaughtered millions at this stage.
Jace Campbell
What exactly is your point here? 25 million Chinese fighting for their nation was not the reason they won? What if those people had not fought?
The 1944 campaign was an IJA desperation move that finally broke the Japanese war effort completely. China retook all that land over the rest of 1944, and retook coastal China before the war even ended. You are historically illiterate.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_West_Hunan >By April 1945, China had already been at war with Japan for more than seven years. Both nations were exhausted by years of battles, bombings and blockades. From 1941-1943, both sides maintained a "dynamic equilibrium", where field engagements were often, numerous, involved large numbers of troops and produced high casualty counts, but the results of which were mostly indecisive. Operation Ichi-Go in 1944 changed the status quo, as Japanese forces were able to break through the inadequate Chinese defenses and occupy most of Henan, Hunan and Guangxi, connecting Japanese-held areas from north to south in a continuous front.
>However, the Japanese victory resulted in very little actual benefit for them:[3] the operation drained Japanese manpower and a weakened Japanese army had to defend a longer front with more partisan activity in occupied areas. The opening up of north-south railway connections did little to improve Japanese logistics, for only one train ran from Guangzhou to Wuhan in April 1945, and due to fuel shortages the primary mode of transportation for Japanese troops was on foot.
Japan did a kamikaze mission. They lost strategically with Ichi-Go. As all historians state.
Daniel Hill
That was thanks to rational minded Chinese men (Deng Xiaoping, Zhou Enlai) and not the kind of people CCP wanted to have
Also Taiwan is doing great nowadays for being in a small island with their mortal enemies hovering right by them, so imagine how much better China would be if KMT took over mainland. Hell China wouldn't need a anti-West platform to work on anymore due to ideology bullshit and would just focus on business side (which they are very good at). If they followed that China would be more powerful than the paper dragon it is today
Ethan Myers
Find a single source definitively claiming that China would have fallen to the Japanese without the USA.
China and Japan fought from September 1937 to January 1942 before the first American bomb fell on a Japanese army.
If Japan was so superior, why were they unable to win after 53 months? Why were they so economically desperate they chose to attack Southeast Asia for resources to fuel the war effort, if Japan was so superior?
Find a source
Elijah Collins
>China saved China Yeah I'm sure the two largest militaries on earth closing in on Japan, which by then had occupied almost the entire country, and forcing them to withdraw had nothing to do with it Wu Liao.
Juan Wright
Is China a paper dragon? I think it’s on an equal platform with the US.
Liam White
Probably because China is many times the size of Japan and they were invading the rest of Asia at the same time.
Landon Barnes
Are you seriously arguing that a massive rural nation of 1.4 billion farmers would develop as fast as the island of 20 million with economic and military aid if only the KMT won?
Joshua Murphy
We only "liberated them" to try to exploit them.
We are currently exploiting the Japanese and Koreans
Mason Ramirez
Mainland China would be a bigger shithole that it is today if the KMT was in charge. Do you know why the Communists won the Civil War? It's because KMT-controlled areas were shit. They had control of the cities, but actually the Japanese grasp of the countryside was very weak due to Communist guerrillas. Those maps showing Japanese control of China are very misleading in that respect. Jesus Christ, the amount of brainlets in this thread. Pearl Harbor was a desperation move because the Japanese realized they couldn't win in China.
Camden Lewis
You're strawmanning me. I am simply saying that there is deficit of trust outside of family spheres, not blaming the CCP for every ill in China. Now, according to my parents, who have in fact lived in China and are old enough to remember the days before the CCP became entrenched, people tended to be more trusting of others, at least within their immediate community.
I wonder about your readiness to come to the CCP's defence, though.
Ryder Kelly
China doesn't even have standardized radio communications for their military.
Thomas Miller
>occupying almost the entire country Find a fucking source you absolute shill.
Japan barely controlled 30% of China at their peak in 1944. That kamikaze operation enabled China to counterattack in August 1944 and retake all their lost land before a single American soldier touched Japanese soil.
Blake James
I'm not saying pre CCP China was the best place either. All I'm saying is if history took a different path, lots of all the follies (GLF, Cultural Revo) and their millions of unnecessary deaths would have been avoided.
About bringing millions out of poverty, I know that you know that only happened when the CCP stopped acting like the CCP (i.e. abandoned that Maoist cancer that has eaten up China)
Nathaniel Perry
but if china didnt fight the US, it would be the US' bitch like todays japan and korea
Andrew Butler
>when the CCP stopped acting like the CCP What the fuck does that even mean. The CCP is the CCP, everything they do is what the CCP acts like. No shit communism sucks ass, but that's not what we're arguing about. Don't change the argument.
Benjamin Nguyen
Why do I have to find a source, you find a source asshat.
Everyone knows all China had was manpower. Disorganized manpower at that. None of their technology could match the Japanese. Manpower doesnt count for shit against organized aerial supiriority dumbass
Wyatt Cook
My grandparents state the complete opposite. Chinese outside their village mistrusted all other Chinese in the past.
This is why capitalism did not function in China before the 1970s. No one trusted those who were from a different region.
If everyone was so trusting in 1927, why was China a broken impoverished shithole?
You can believe your anecdote of some glorious past where somehow illiterate starving farmers were more moral. I’ll trust in my facts.
Adrian Hall
Because you made a thread and you made numerous claims.
The burden of proof is not upon the defendant. That is how WESTERN debate rules work.
Either you support your claims, or fuck off.
Jason Collins
Which is why the US and France were victorious in Vietnam?
Landon Martinez
More like wtf is the US problem? How could they be so foolish to trust the chinese? Very stupid
Isaac Harris
Stop getting so butthurt Jimmy Wong. This is an anime picture forum, not a courtroom. Anyway i dont need to provide sources for information which is well known by properly educated, unbiased persons
Eli Fisher
Yep and the Soviets were technologically and militarily superior in Afghanistan. Just like the USA is, for 17 years and counting.
Chinese defended China for 53 months straight WHEN THE USA WAS NOT IN THE WAR.
You people are insane to say Chinese did not save China. That’s like saying the Soviets did not save Rusisa.
I have a good fact though, French did not save France. We did.
Logan Rivera
The worst are the new mainlanders.
They actually have zero idea of why people like my mother and father left China in 1980.
Benjamin Morales
They lost due to the domestic situation. Hippy counter culture and modern photo video journalism.
Henry Turner
If you want to ignore the rules of debate, then obviously any discussion with you is worthless.
You made these claimsI DID NOT.
Either support your claims with a source, or shut the fuck up. I don’t have to disprove your claims, even though I haveYOU need to support your claims.
Christopher Taylor
I could relate to you my own tale of woe about how the CCP went into my granddad's village, had him thrown into jail (where he died), and how subsequently, every villager made a point of harassing my family for any reason at all.
But you'd make every point to dismiss what I say, because it is evident from what you've posted so far as to what you will choose to believe.
Jackson Powell
Yeah I’m sure your starving illiterate rice farming ancestors are far superior to mine!
Wow I should feel horrible about my horrible disgustig evil awful ancestors! They were the one who made decisions in China! They deserve the blame, not the people in power.
Thank you for enlightening me!
Kill yourself Sup Forums
Christopher Fisher
Dude, the accepted history is that Japan was having trouble fighting China and realized it could not win in China. They couldn't pull out or risk revolution as the ruling party had been promising this conquest for years. >By 1941, Japan had occupied much of north and coastal China, but the KMT central government and military had retreated to the western interior to continue their resistance, while the Chinese communists remained in control of base areas in Shaanxi. In the occupied areas, Japanese control was mainly limited to railroads and major cities ("points and lines"). They did not have a major military or administrative presence in the vast Chinese countryside, where Chinese guerrillas roamed freely. From wikipedia. The Japanese's last hope was to get resources in Southeast Asia that they could use to finally crush the Chinese. To do this, they wanted to make sure that the US couldn't intervene, which is why they attacked Pearl Harbor.
Andrew Martinez
You claim that Chinese were more moral before the CCP.
Do you have a single source to support that?
You’re telling me that the starving, illiterate, raped, and broken China of 1924 (before the CCP even existed) was somehow a more trusting and moral place than in 2018? I’d argue it is exactly the same, and human natures does not change because of some diktat from a bureaucrat in the capital.
Nostalgia is a powerful drug.
Grayson King
They are going to call you Jimmy Leung Chung pretty soon.
Historical facts hurt their feelings.
Brandon Nelson
Ok so you really need me to find a source showing you how the USA and the west bombed the shit out of Japan, rendering their occupation of china a secondary task... How dumb are you? Fire bombing of tokyo...hiroshima..nagasaki...i really need to give you a source you moron?
The chinese had no capability to attack Japan proper and thats why they never did. Im sorry if i touched a sore spot for you
Ayden Brown
Mutts and Chinks are cancer to human
Adrian Gonzalez
>they did something (in complete self-interest) that happened to benefit me in some way >therefore I owe them anything other than my fist fuck off boot licker
Lucas Martinez
Terrible economic condition until after maos death when industrialization happened, Mao caused millions of death from his collectivization of peasant farmland just like what happened under stalins agricultural policy
Nationalist China under Chiangmai hai shek was Americas ally and Mao was a puppet appointed by the soviets when they occupied north china and the union dissolved between the ussr and Mao after destalinization began under Stalins successor.
Easton Cox
I am not saying that the Chinese were more moral before the CCP took over China. I am simply saying that there is a present deficit of trust, and I am saying that the CCP are in part responsible for this, both intentionally and unintentionally. The CCP both hates and fears anything involving people forming connections that are not to the CCP, first and foremost. This is in part why they cracked down on Tiananmen Square when they did: the soldiers started going over to the protestors' side. To this day, they discourage any form of self-organization that is outside of their purview.
My source is my parents and my grandparents, who are as good a source as any. You can accept it or not. It is apparent that you choose the latter, and that you will never accept any other argument that runs contrary to yours, regardless of the weight of sources that I or anyone else can put up.
Cameron Nelson
From Saburo Ienaga's The Pacific War: "How could China be brought to its knees? That was the intractable problem. Unable to get a negotiated settlement on favorable terms or to win a final military triumph, Japanese leaders sought victory by expanding the conflict." You can read more at openresearch-repository.anu.edu.au/bitstream/1885/114670/2/b12001491.pdf
Cooper Jenkins
CCP =/= KMT
Sino Japanese war actually helped them, it made the KMT weak and hated by the average civilian then.
Levi Johnson
>hat’s like saying the Soviets did not save Rusisa. They didn't, it was lend lease.
Colton Sullivan
KMT lost because they were exhausted from war with Japan Commies did bumfuck all against Japan Hong Kong Taiwan and Singapore are all good. China is still shit. Mainlanders are still shit. Really makes you think
Jaxson Price
Hong Kong mentioned
Ayden Myers
>The CCP is responsible for anything positive in China. what's positive about china? the fact that there's lots of chinese people there? it's a 2nd world country and they have the worst culture in the world. they all would kill their own brother for a buck. they have none of the positive aspects of religion like being something more than yourself but keep their superstitious rituals for wealth. they're the lowest class people in the world
Gavin Johnson
The cities are basically first world, and it's a better place to live in than the majority of countries. A shithole compared to developed countries I admit. I wasn't saying China is good, but rather China has some good things which the CCP is responsible for.
What I'm saying is, it took China countless lawless years and millions of millions of lives lost or ruined for them to reach where they are and in the end they just ended up aping Taiwan where KMT was in power
James Wright
If we nuked china which country would take over it's land?
Aiden Johnson
>usa+west were fighting imperial japan only to save china because they're good white knights
Hudson Wilson
...
Aaron Miller
They also can't build high performance jet engines and they have liquid fueled ICBMs like it was 1966.
Jason Roberts
China never won a single pitched battle against the IJA. Chiang Kai-Shek also just pocketed Allied money while doing nothing to help the war effort, while the communists were busy hiding in caves and collaborating with the Japanese.
Adrian Cox
This isn't /his/, faggot
Charles Bell
>while the communists were busy hiding in caves and collaborating with the Japanese.
Nolan Scott
KMT lost because Chiang Kai-shek was the king of all morons. When the communists captured him in 1935, he was set free and released because they reasoned that he was the one KMT leader incompetent enough that they could beat him.
After losing the civil war, he made another major mistake that Taiwan is still paying for in that he kept ridiculously insisting until his dying day that the KMT were the legitimate rulers of the country (they never actually controlled more than half of China at any one point). The end result is the questionable international status that Taiwan has today. What CKS should have done if he'd had an IQ above room temperature was to declare independence in the '50s under US protection.
Wyatt Butler
US pulled support from KMT after ww2 and let Mao steamroll over the exhausted KMT, so go and blame the muttians for PRC's existance
Alexander Howard
This is why the West is declining
Henry Lopez
>get so irrevocably BTFO it isn't even taught in schools there Actually they're just told that the war was a limited objectives one to "teach Vietnam a lesson" and that mission accomplished.
Jacob Flores
Holy shit that screencap is scary fucking accurate. Chinese are exactly like that to this day.
Jonathan Green
Tbh, kmt was pretty corrupted back then, which is why CCP got popular support from the masses. Even after they got exiled to taiwan, their policies were pretty sick with a few decade of white terror and wasn't a true democracy until like 1996. To some extend Taiwanese independence is much more anti-kmt than CCP.
Brayden Green
>Sick I typed wack you stupid auto correct
Michael Stewart
The brits literally burned the white house, but American literally couldn't give less of a shit. The UK is still our ally.
The US did not participate in any of the British coalition wars with the exception of the boxer rebellion, and the US has a minor role in that war.
I think all the help that the US gave in WWII, would offset that, no?
Connor Lee
>sideshow from the European perspective maybe. But the US fielded the largest Navy in HISTORY, and detonated the only 2 nuclear weapons ever used. I wouldn't call that a sideshow.
Aiden Bennett
>We defaulted We didn't default. We simply refused the new french regime. That was also after the french had assaulted and seized our ships all around the atlantic remaining neutral during their war with britain.
>China and Japan fought for 4+ years before the USA even entered WW2. And how did that go? China lost a good chunk of their population and land. The tide of war only turned in China's favour after Japan had been obliterated. China was losing battles even in the early 1945. The Soviets had to wipe the japs from manchuria.
China was saved.
Joseph Morgan
The whole purpose of the offensive was to dislodge the vietnamese forces from cambodia and force them to retreat and defend their northern border, this did not work. Thus, China lost.
Grayson Perez
It's not feasible to occupy every inch of a country of such size in both landmass and population unless you have an unlimited manpower to begin with, and so Japan occupied the Central Plain, which is the heartland of China, Manchuria (which Japan industrialized) and valuable coastal areas where a large part of commerce took place, and without them it was only a matter of time before China gave up due to the loss of capabilities to wage a modern war.
>That kamikaze operation enabled China to counterattack in August 1944 and retake all their lost land LOL, what are you on really? China had no capabilities to retake those by itself. In fact, throughout 1944 Japanese armies were going through inland China (pic related) defeating every resistance. This is sometimes called a strategic failure because some of objectives such as neutralizing Allies' airfields were not achieved enough (due to their relocation to Pacific islands), but militarily it's pretty much yet another Japanese victory.
Seriously, If the Second Sino-Japanese war had been a conventional war, it would've ended at the point of fall of Nanking, the capital. After Nanking, the war basically turned into a very huge Vietnam war, meaning that you can overwhelm enemies anytime and yet it's difficult to annihilate them since they are hiding or mingling with the populace.
Jackson Watson
By April 1945, when this battle took place, the IJN was basically non-existent.
The Japanese could not properly feed or arm their army in the mainland. How was japan going to field an effective army, when they couldn't supply it and their homeland was burning to the ground.
Fighting spirit doesn't win wars. The japanese probably had more spirit than anyone else and they lost.
The chinese would have lost had the west not intervened in the pacific, or more like Japan hand't been so stupid as to attack the US.
Nathaniel Long
You have to take Ienaga's works with a grain of salt though, because he's a notorious leftist, or a commie, known for a morbid sympathy for China and North Korea and pretty biased views. He described the cause of the Korean war as an "American invasion" for example. And, anyway even he himself admitted that China stood no chance, in the context of justifying China's violation of Laws of War, saying that the Chinese stood no chance against the Japanese regular army, so it stands to reason that they employed unconventional tactics.
>To do this, they wanted to make sure that the US couldn't intervene, No, but America had ALREADY been intervening, which is why Japan attacked America in the first place. What was Chinese airforce? - proxy American airforce (e.g. Flying Tigers). Why did Japan take SEA? - to gain natural resources especially oil due to US oil embargo Why did Japan take continental SEA? - to cut off Allies' supply route to China Why did Japan even advance to fucking Burma and India? - to cut off another Allies' supply route to China.
Pretty much every Japanese war effort in SEA after 1941 revolved around resource extraction and blocking supplies to China.
As I said above, Sino-Japanese war and Vietnam war have a lot in common. America also attacked countries around Vietnam to cut off commie supply, and the difference is, Japan had to directly fight multiple western powers to do the same since they were western colonies back then, and that's the sole reason why China survived.
If china really conquered back its cities, where is the "reconquest of beijing" or the "reconquest of shanghai".
I can't find it.
Logan Scott
Well, they aren't the china we saved, they are the communist tumor that existed on the back of that china we worked so hard to help against the Japanese. So, they really don't see or respect any part of our aid to the region as having been to their benefit. They even go so far as to erase the national contributions of the china that was, and in their own history promote a vision that they won the war against japan and all that.
Julian Harris
> China would have lost the war had it not being for the west and the soviets.
The chinese were no doing such a good job at "defending" china. They were having massive losses.
The Japanese got to take everything they cared about. all the major coastal cities, and manchuria. Had they been given a few more years, they would have closed the pocket manchuria to hong kong, and destroyed it. Leaving the western half alone. Who cares about a literal dessert.
Ryder Adams
The Soviets did save russia. They with their own boots, marched from moscow to Berlin.
The chinese didn't retake any of their major cities afaik. They only engaged in guerrilla encounters in the countryside.
Why are people ignoring that nobody attacked Japan. Japan attacked both the US and the UK and the Dutch not the other way around. The embargos were good and useful but it wasn't a full intervention
Charles Richardson
Well, we all know that. Japan is completely at fault for having started a war they couldn't win.
But that was not the case for the second sino-Japanese war. That was a war what was basically won. Had they not gotten greedy, they could have settled for a good chunk of china.
Blake Taylor
>And yet China 1976 was far better than China 1949. Yeah, because they was happier that they had gone trough something even worse. Also mental photoshopping of the past.
>Do people not get that China 1849-1949 had endless starvation, got colonized, beaten by every foreign power, and nearly genocided by the Japanese? >nearly genocided And then they showed that they are better than the Japanese by genociding themselves even worse.
Landon Thompson
Nobody says Japan was good.
Ryan Ross
>>Be China in 1940s >>USA+west literally completely saves their existence, at huge cost, by fighting and destroying imperial Japan Oh my God, this delusion. Do you have any idea what Western countries, especially the UK, France an US, did to China for 100 years at that point? Constantly bullying, invading China and setting up colonies along the coast, extorting money and territory and selling drugs to the masses. Hong Kong, Shanghai, Tianjin, the invasion of Peking, the Opium Wars, the burning of the Summer Palace. List goes on and on. Then, they found a common enemy and for five years the West put up with China as an ally the same way they did with the Soviet Union, for purely strategic reasons. Immediately after, the US decided to try to isolate the new, independent government of China and Balkanize it, with the help of the usual suspects in the Western alliance. China has every reason to be suspicious of the West and their intentions.
Mason Mitchell
>america intervenes in shit "reeee america world police fuck offffff muttss!" >america don't intervene "wtffff blame the americans for not doing anything stupid fags"
you people are insufferable
Angel King
>US >100 years Please, France and the UK sure. But the US only really got involved in the Boxer rebellion, and that was because westerned were literally being killed and their property destroyed in China. The US did not colonize china, and putting the blame on the US, for European colonialism is like saying all asians are the same for whatever fucking reason.
>balkanize it What are you talking about? The US very much supported china for most of the 20th century. The US didn't turn pro-china overnight.
Robert Gray
America had already fought a World war. You think the US public would have supported a chinese expeditionary force?
The US did support the KMT materially. It also defended and secured the safety of the government in exile in Taiwan, and still does to this day.
Jason Mitchell
This, desu.
Hunter Foster
>China and Japan fought for 4+ years the Republic of China did with loads of US aid while the communists hid
Caleb Bennett
The US did far less wrong to China during the Century of Humiliation than did Japan and the European powers.
Eli Perez
there was only so much the US could realistically do without leaving an occupation force in China to fight some horrid guerilla war the KMT had all the advantages and they still lost so what do you expect the US to have done to help them?
Hudson Smith
Did you see that 2015 celebration in China commemorating the 70th anniversary of Japan's defeat? It was the most comical historical revisionism of all time.
