Then and Now: differences in dealing with military films

>late 60s and 70s to 80s: Vietnam was a shitty and terrible time for American history, thousands died and war is poitnless, war is pointless death for larger political masters.
>post 2002 to early 2010s: American soldiers are Spartan heroes who are dindu nuffins fighting foreign hordes in slow mo with golden hues softening their edges to "liberate" the Middle East.
What in the living fuck happened?

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youtube.com/watch?v=EBxgrr0wL8M
motherjones.com/politics/2004/09/operation-hollywood/
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what films are you referring to you turbo pleb

>literally any Iraq film in post 9-11 American cinema
What makes me a pleb?

first priority these days is the movie has to appeal to the lowest common denominator?

So, are you saying the lowest common denominator is brainwashed and war obsessed?

>post 9-11 American cinema
that's your answer right there

I guess I am mostly baffled at the lack of self-awareness that we have on war films. I'm a mid to late millennial, so I guess my attitude to Iraq is far more negative than younger kids.

>mid to late millennial
theres your problem, you're a pussy who doesn't want to CRUSH his enemies under his foot

You realize that puts me to late 20s to early 30s, right?

Apocalypse Now is the most jingo movie ever made. It makes war look like a fantasy adventure.

>literally the exact opposite of the point with Apacalypse Now.

Reminder that apocalypse now is not a war film. It is a film set during a war.

It is an adaption of Heart of Darkness and so is at its core a critique of Western imperialism. The war is peripheral to the story.

What was the point if not to create a marvelous spectacle to thrill audiences and win fame and fortune?

Why would a critique on imperialism not be an anti-war film?

>there are no post 2001 films with a critic view of american military

you guys are fucking retarded. There are thousands. But people like to enjoy movies like The lone Survivor more than In the Valley of Elah, Redacted, Green Zone or the other half a million

That wasn't the point.

then why is it so boring?

The problem is it contains bullshit semi fantasy elements towards the end, which are also completely fictional.

Its only a war movie in the same way that inglorious bastards is a war movie.

That seems like a really shirty way of criticizing....

Did you watch it?

*shitty

Apocalypse Now was a needed propaganda piece for the peace/hippie movement, the movie is comically absurd in its presentation of the vietnam war, but people at the time largerly ate it up as an "accurate" description of what is happening there.

I mean, the sadistic officer that lands in the middle of a battle to go surfing? Sure, that's how military personal is.

>it is peace propaganda
Do you fucking hear yourself? How old are you?

Why is there anything wrong with this statement? Anti war films plainly and completely admittedly exist, they are therefore propaganda for the cause of not war/peace

what was then?

Nice reading comprehension

29

>anything anti-war, is propaganda.

in a wide sense, anything made to share a point of view and promote your ageda is propaganda. And liberal hollywood movies against Bush's administration clearly was propaganda, for example

Plesse fuck off back to Sup Forums you retarded faggot.

People who surf like that do exist. It's a show of control and military victory and is something that would seem good for morale and as a news story.

>in a wide sense, anything made to share a point of view and promote your ageda is propaganda.
Literally not what propaganda is.

>and liberal hollywood movies against Bush's administration clearly was propaganda, for example
Is this the brainwashing I am dealing with here? Is this how fucked in the head we got?

Anything that promotes a message, particularly of a political nature, is by definition propaganda.

You've just been nurtured on the belief that propaganda is some sort of pejorative term, because you've probably heard it in negative contexts.

>aything that promotes a message, particularly of a political nature, is by definition propaganda.
No, it isn't...

ITT triggered commies who think 'propaganda' only means things evil right wingers did to poor lefties or minorities because their marxist teachers told them so.

yes, everyone who doesn't hold the liberal hollywood worldview is from Sup Forums

yes, military personal always goes surfing in the middle of battle, of course that exists.


Fuck this board

yes it is

>then
>watching kino made about the vietnam war and it's horror like Apocalypse Now, Platoon, Deer Hunter, FMJ
>now
>movies about how boring war is, like Jarhead, Generation Kill, and Hurt Locker

Movies just got shittier, don't know what to tell you. It's not the material that's bad, it's just that people don't want to see good movies anymore.

>being anti-war is a "liberal hollywood worldlview"
Do you hear yourself?

It's not, you fucking Sup Forums retard. Fuck off with your buzzwords.

Why are you so triggered by the assertion that an 'anti war' message is 'propaganda'?

Propaganda as a term doesn't carry the assertion that what it claims is wrong or false or somehow bad, its simply a term for a thing through which a message is pushed.

Arabs need to to be culled.
American military are heroes doing the world good.

>everyone who disagrees with my cartoonish worldview is a "commie".

So:
>anything I say, or don't like is propaganda.

>everyone who disagrees with my cartoonish worldview is from Sup Forums

well, to be fair, movies like jarhead deal with the fact that people got their vision of war from older movies. Then, they expect that and got hit by the reality

kinda yes, being a pacifist beta is the (ingrained) liberal hollywood worldview, you are just too uneducated to know that this hasn't been the modus operandi for males like you in the west before the 60's, and that it hasn't happened to be it now all on its own.

And guess what, I dont even go on pol

That's literally what you are doing.

Modern war films are LITERALLY recruitment propaganda. Not in a figurative way. No, in a LITERAL way. They are approved and supplied by the US AF in order to boost recruitment numbers.

Just look at the most recent film about that bitch and the dog. Its 100% to get women to enlist.

I already said its not an inherently negative term. I freely admit that some things which I like are propaganda for a belief that I also hold.

what?

Anyways, sharing your opinion is not propaganda. Investing 100 million dolars in a movie to share that opinion IS propaganda. It doesn't matter if it's good or bad.

>modern war films are documentary depictions of heroic exploits, also covering their loyal families back at home
>tend to get both critical and commercial success
wew laddy

>being a pacifist
>is being a beta
You're brainwashed, mate.

>peace propaganda
Easy on them "red" pills.

By claiming that people making movies with a deliberate anti war message is 'propaganda'?

Lets take the other side. Would you call a film with a deliberate pro war message 'propaganda'? If yes, what's the difference? Can you articulate it to me without screaming 'BAG2POL:D:D:D'

>modern war films are documentary depictions of heroic exploits, also covering their loyal families back at home
>tend to get both critical and commercial success
You live in a fantasy world.

Please adequately and concretely explain to me what makes something propaganda outside your "feelings"...

Not him, but:

You dont make films as propaganda for war. You make propaganda films to show how great fighting for your country is, by glorifying the act of violence and even conquest.

Anti-war films are non-ideological (mostly), since peace isnt a politial fucking view. Its a state of peace.

American IQ is falling. American unity is now so fragile that it can't withstand criticism. Super powers like China have matched and will likely surpass American economic might.
The US will give up on its ideals to try and stay relevant. It's the slow death of freedom.

>having a budget makes your movie propaganda.

lol but it is. And the best thing, you can get it taught via a great movie!

youtube.com/watch?v=EBxgrr0wL8M

>being a pacifist is beta, according to my YouTube video.
Kill yourself.

Agreed. It's also the reason why war movies are so shit nowadays.

>jarhead, valley of Elah, Redacted, Green Zone, Brothers, The messenger, Lions for lambs, taxi to the dark side, stop-loss, syriana or body of lies would make me want to join the army

It's not their fault if people enjoy more a good action movie than the 99# drama about how bad white people is

>Oxford Dictionary

"Information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote a political cause or point of view."

>Cambridge dictionary

"information, ideas, opinions, or images, often only giving one part of an argument, that are broadcast, published, or in some other way spread with the intention of influencing people's opinions"

>Merrimam-Webster dictionary

: the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person

: ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect

>muh white people wahhh wah wah

intended for (You)

Woah, it's almost like you are intentionally vague to apply "propaganda" to anything you dislike. Really fires the neurons.

It literally does, you faggot

>Anti-war films are non-ideological (mostly)
hahahahahahahahaha

this is how brainwashed they are.

"my views instilled on me from childhood on are just the normal thing to think, get back to pol you weirdo with this weirdo things you say about propaganda in my ideology-free masterpieces"

W T F

Its almost like you think you know better than 3 of the world's most reputable dictionaries

It's almost like the definition itself allows for a degree of vagueness for case by case scenarios.

Its almost like you are arbitrarily excluding things from falling within the broad definition of propaganda because they happen to support your own worldview.

>being a pacifist is to be brainwashed
Or maybe I'm not a cucked faggot who blindly gives trillions of dollars into foreign wars?

If this irony is lost on you...

>It literally does, you faggot
Then you are a goof.

>it's ideological to be anti-war and say "hey, don't needlessly kill people"
>I am this cucked by American education.

I'm not saying anti war films are propaganda because i happen to disagree with that worldview. I'm generally not in favour of war.

Its still propaganda. The people who make these films aren't ideologically free, pure objective people making an untained objective representation of war. They make them to have certain themes and messages.

So:
>anything I don't like/anything that has a political message, is propaganda

Do you not seem to understand that a film having a subjective bias, doesn't just magically make it propaganda? Jesus Christ, are you this retarded?

They've been influencing Hollywood since the late 20s but only started to really rev up the machine after Vietnam to be efficient.

motherjones.com/politics/2004/09/operation-hollywood/

Why is it not propaganda?

Why don't we make this easier and you give me your own definition of 'propaganda', if you think the dictionary definition is not satisfactory

I still have to watch a post 2000 anti war movie by a major holywood studio that goes against war itself, and not against the Bush administration, with wise and old characters that know about war and have fought in legit ones and find out this one in particular is bad, for example. Or against the economic model that forces the USA to fight over petrol, or the corruption behind weapons deals.

Please, show me a movie about how bad war is. Show me a post 2000 hollywood's Johnny got his gun

Please, show me.

>anything that has a political message, is propaganda

ftfy and yes.

Doesn't matter if I like it or not

>I am this cucked by American education.
Oh, and I'm european

you don't get it.

>anything I like or don't like and has a political message, is propaganda

That was a different time man, back when people were actually aware of the shit their government does and had the balls to talk about it (1971, iran-contra affair, watergate, etc.).

Ironic, considering you clearly ate up those Marine corps commercials at your local cinema.

Im not even American m8. I live in a non-cucked European nation, which literally doesnt give a fuck about any other nation on the world. In fact, we have conscription here. We are all "patriots" by default. That however doesnt mean that I want to be sent to some 3rd world shithole to kill a bunch of sand people. Wanting peace doesnt mean you cant love your country.

But hey, what do I know? Im an educated European who likes to shitpost on an anonymous kino forum.

Vietnam had 50,000 dead soldiers to Iraq and Afghanistan's combined, what, 8000? Night and day. Half the country is still OK with us staying in Iraq/Afghanistan as long as it takes. That clearly wasn't the case when Vietnam was happening.

>Oh, and I'm european
Poland is not European.

Because juat because something has a political message, it doesn't make it propaganda. Do you not understand that?

Again, just because something has a political message....doesn't make it propaganda.

>Propaganda = something i disagree with

Say no more senpai. I gotchu

This is interesting because Iraq and Afghanistan have been hilariously expensive in these 16 years to American public. They accrued over a trillion in debt to USA or something.

>Half the country is still OK with us staying in Iraq/Afghanistan as long as it takes
No...they aren't. Are you autistic?

Did you miss the point of OP's post?

>8000 people
>out of a population of over 300 million
>4 million more people reaching military service age every year
>everyone who went there went there voluntarily and knew the risk of death was present.

Why do people pretend like the Iraq and Afghanistan wars were unwinnable, or pretend to give a fuck about 'our poor soldiers'.?

what about Spain?
An opinion by somebody on the streets, or a anonymous vietnamese trading card forum? No. A hollywood production with hundreds of people involved, a budget, a marketing strategy and a distribution plan? Of course. It is propaganda. Deal with it.

Like we gave a shit for half of them. Bush won reelection on 9/11 and the Iraq War. People act like these wars have always been viewed as a mistake but public sentiment didn't start to turn until the waning years of Bush's second term and even now our political leaders aren't willing to face the potential fallout of Afghanistan collapsing to Taliban rule. We already spend more on our military than every other country combined, what's the point if we're not going to use it right? Better than giving people health care apparently.

What makes it propaganda then?

I'm saying that thw definition obviously offers a degree of open-endness for case for case scenarios. It isn't just "things I don't like". Because that would make you literally autistic.