So, I was watching Bojack Horseman, and, uh

So, I was watching Bojack Horseman, and, uh..

youtube.com/watch?v=Z47F2tBCPA0

This is pretty insulting. Say what you want about abortion, but framing it as a "men vs. women" issue is disingenuous. The abortion debate is actually about when a clump of cells becomes a life work protecting, not whether women are people too.

The episode also undermines its own argument. It says that pro-life men will never know what it's like to put their life on hold to take care of a kid, even though Diane has a husband who would be just as responsible for the kid as she is.

Just how stupid and/or sexist does the Bojack team think pro-lifers are?

Why are you even surprised? Everything's a fucking gender debate now, I'm fairly certain there are more men who spew out gender politics shit than there are women anyways.

It's like we've all reverted back to Kindergarten but everyone still has some of their puberty leftovers in there.

>Everything's a fucking gender debate now
That's sexist.

> BoJack Horseman’s take on abortion is bold, nuanced, and funny

>As is typical in the BoJack Horseman universe, the mouth of this outrage is MSNBSea’s Tom Jumbo-Grumbo, who responds to all this abortion talk by assembling a panel of old men in bow-ties. This entire scene is a straight-up glorious “fuck the patriarchy” moment, presenting clearly defined models for everyone who’s taken a stance on a woman’s right to choose and showing just how callow and hypocritical those opinions are. (Example: “I can say that with confidence because I’ll never have to make that decision, so I’m unbiased.”) It nails the worst part of abortion debates, how they’re so often had by those who have no business talking about it.

This is what the AV Club considers to be nuance.

Having a trash soapboxing episode in the middle of the season seems to have become a Bojack tradition since s2.

BRRAP BRRAP PEW PEW

AV Club writes like it has been hit by one.

>The abortion debate is actually about when a clump of cells becomes a life work protecting, not whether women are people too.
The left's pro-abortion stems from the concept of bodily autonomy not the "life begins at conception" thing or whatever.
Of course they didn't give a voice to both sides and you're right it is disingenuous to frame it as a men vs women issue but you're wrong to say it isn't a matter of women's rights.

that really boils my piss. how can you say nuance and think you mean nuance when you clearly do not?

So it's wrong or at least unwise to make crass music videos about killing babies...but actually killing babies is fine.

>has a husband who would be just as responsible for the kid as she is.
her husband doesn't have a risk of dying if there's complications in childbirth

It's a buzzword.

The entire point of the show is to take bothe arguments and make them caricatures of themselves. The fact that many news shows will talk about women's issues with only men, or talk about black issues with only white people is a real thing, so the show takes that concept to the extreme.

Also,

>But has the concept of women having choices gone too far?

Is fucking hilarious

sorry, I forgot its 1290 AD

Diane got an abortion because she doesn't want kids, not because she was afraid she'd die.

I think the message here is that everybody's got their own reasons for supporting or opposing big topics. And the greatest victims of controversy are the people that are caught in the middle who the extremists on either side think are too stupid and callow to make their own minds (see Diane's meeting with that hoodie girl at the end of the episode who actually saw the comedy in Aquafina's video instead of taking it at face value like Diane thought someone who wasn't a 35 year old third-wave feminist would).

Pro-Choice isn't exactly portrayed spotlessly either, BoJack adores abortion because it means he can go full raw into his floozies with no repercussions which is as sexist as it gets and disgusting on several levels.

>Just how stupid and/or sexist does the Bojack team think pro-lifers are?

Ridiculously fucking stupid

The actual issue in the episode was how seriously you should treat abortion. Is it something to wail to the heavens about or is it something you can make fun of?

This was the worst episode of season 3 in my honest opinion.

Not only did OP state that it was an unnecessary gender war over something that has nothing to do with gender, but Diane and Mr. Peanut Butter are:-

>1. Married
>2. Love each other to death
>3. Rich
>4. In their mid-30's

They literally had no reason to get an abortion, like, they only wanted to get it because they thought it'd ruin their marriage when it would've strengthened it instead. It makes sense if they don't have the space or budget, but they're in the prime of their life and it's honestly disgusting to me.

This episode just left a bad taste in my mouth, I'm a bit more liberal than conservative but I hate the idea of abortions being given to people fully capable of handling a baby.

Hit by what? An AV? Do you men RV?

It stops being a matter of women's rights when there's a man involved, and there was a man involved in this instance.

Having a chance to die giving birth to a kid doesn't correlate with men never having to take responsibility for a kid or stop what they're doing to take care of their family. Do you not know what childcare is or something?

Paternal leave is slowly becoming a thing anyways. This argument is dumb.

>The entire point of the show is to take bothe arguments and make them caricatures of themselves.
They didn't caricature the other side.

>It stops being a matter of women's rights when there's a man involved
The fuck? No it doesn't.

>wanting a baby
Don't be a fag.

Not in that specific scene, no, but they caricature the fuck out of west coast liberalism and their values. That's like 90% of the show.

Is there even any point in the show where they just straight up mock feminism?

>Ridiculously fucking stupid
And that's terrible.

>The actual issue in the episode was how seriously you should treat abortion. Is it something to wail to the heavens about or is it something you can make fun of?
They didn't need to strawman the pro-lifers to make that point.

>BoJack adores abortion because it means he can go full raw into his floozies with no repercussions which is as sexist as it gets and disgusting on several levels.
I don't remember Bojack stating his opinion in this episode, actually, but I haven't seen it since July.

She's married to a man. The fetus is just as much his as it is hers. If you do not believe he gets any say in the matter, I don't think you understand what marriage is.

>not wanting a baby
You must've come from a shitty family, there's nothing more joyful in life than holding your own newborn softly between your hands.

>The abortion debate is actually about when a clump of cells becomes a life work protecting, not whether women are people too.

That's like saying the US civil war wasn't about slavery, it was about states rights

hint: both thing can be true at the same time

Considering the majority of federal, state, and local lawmakers are men, and thus have the highest impact on women's right to abortion, to insinuate that it is not, in many contexts, a "mens vs womens issue" issue is dishonest.

If women don't want to bear children they should stop having sex then

And before someone brings up pregnancies caused by rape, it is fully possible to have a law allowing the 1% of abortions performed to end rape induced pregnancies while still disallowing people from fucking without care for the consequences

I didn't like the episode (other than how Diane realizes she isn't a hip young thing any more) but Princess Caroyln's line to Diane at the end (something like "You didn't do anything wrong") legit made me cringe. Such disgusting piety.

Pro-lifers are uniformly depicted as ignorant or stupid, though. There's quite a lot of pandering in this episode.

Actually at that age Diane's fertility is already declining rapidly.

>but they caricature the fuck out of west coast liberalism and their values
What? The show is usually apolitical.

>holding a bloody parasitic worm is beautiful

Okay, fine. But the idea that any man who is pro-life must hold their position because of sexism is ludicrous.

I'm glad you made a thread about this here and not on a board about actual political shitposting.

>I don't remember Bojack stating his opinion in this episode, actually, but I haven't seen it since July.

He says that abortion's pretty neat since he's paid off all the women he's impregnated to abort. Then he hopes that none of them just took the money and had the kid anyway, which, as the s3 finale showed us, happened at least once.

>The fact that many news shows will talk about women's issues with only men, or talk about black issues with only white people is a real thing, so the show takes that concept to the extreme.

This joke was a direct reference to a recent "women's health board" hearing in congress that was actually composed of guys with nary a woman to be seen. That they happened to all be older and white was also a fact.

It's like having a panel on "best new waifu of the fall anime season" run by that guy you know who only watches Toonami.

Or gathering up a bunch of people on Sup Forums to discuss the current state of dating and romance.

>being this much of a delusional faggot

Ok yeah. That's why Diane and MrPB sat down and talked about it like a couple. That doesn't mean being able to have abortions isn't very much a women's issue and at the end of the day if she didn't want to go through with the pregnancy no one can locker her up and make her.

too bad that they don't show that it's only politicians that think this way, just men in general. stop using this argument.

Asian Daria is often the butt of the joke,

>What do you What do you think about Sarah Lynn?
>Oh, I don't really think about her all that much.
I mean, obviously, I'm a fan of her early work which both satirized and celebrated youth culture's obsession with sex, but I do wonder as a third-wave feminist if it's even possible for women to reclaim their sexuality in this deeply entrenched patriarchal society, or if claiming to do so is just a lie we tell ourselves so we can more comfortably cater to the male gaze. But you know, on the other hand, I worry that conversations like this one often dismiss her as a mere puppet of the industry incapable of engaging in these discussions herself. and infantilization, which is itself a product - of the deeply misogynistic society we live in. But like I said, I don't really think about her all that much.

Nah man, it's pretty accurate. You literally just can't understand it.

Nah, I like my nephew. I also like that I can leave his crying pooping ass with his parents and go have fun.

hit dogs holler user. Are you a news media correspondent? Are you a white man who sits on these panels to talk about abortion rights?

No? Then why the fuck are you so triggered right now?

They don't do heavy handed political satire like South Park, but the kind of people they make fun of 90% of the time are the kind of people described as "hollywoo liberal"

>Pro-lifers are uniformly depicted as ignorant or stupid, though. There's quite a lot of pandering in this episode.

On the other side, you have Aquafina and Princess Carolyn trying to cash in on the controversy with the music video and live abortion broadcast despite them both being Pro-Life.

Diane's last line of the episode revealed that the morale of the story is that everyone's only as sincere for as long as it suits them.

When Diane first mentioned being a third-wave feminist to Bojack she started a rambling back-and-forth with herself unable to decide if open sexuality was good or evil. Kind of depicts feminism as confused and useless.

When Diane was trying to expose Mr. Hippopoplous for his unspecified crimes (probably sexual in nature) she sought the aid of a wealthy woman as if her sex was an advantage. When this woman folds immediately when the monied interests protecting Hippopoplous move it makes Diane look naive.

More obviously, the owner of the feminist trash blog Diane is going to work for is obviously evil.

I don't see why you are so upset at the caricature of men from a satirical show.

Do you need a safe space to vent user?

>No? Then why the fuck are you so triggered right now?
no one's triggered except for you, you big baby. the shit about "hurr durr well most politicians are men therefore we can talk about all men" is just a cop out that sanctimonious nerds fall for. try again

>That they happened to all be older and white was also a fact.
The scum!

what would you do if a satirical show made a caricature of women

I'm not the one upset that an adult cartoon show made my identity to be something I don't think it is.

No, really, why are you so triggered?

But pro-lifers are pretty damn stupid, user.

No one's saying that makes them evil, but if you're going to have a public discussion on abortion, having some women involved would probably be a good idea. That's is the source of the joke.

what are you even talking about lmao

my point is that retards use the politicians argument to justify other retards lumping in everyone in a group as the same. you aren't clever for using saying that everyone but you is triggered so give it a rest

That may be true, but women have as much ability to run for office and be elected to it. The election we just had was awful in many ways, but nobody was prevented from voting for the candidate they wanted.

So what? We have doctors of both genders making real medical decisions about those of opposite genders all the time. Why is abortion singled out as the one medical decision men apparently are incapable of being rational about?

We've reached the point where you can't make a satirical joke at men without Sup Forums being upset about it.

Sounds a lot like those other sites yall don't like, but with men.

doctors aren't making legal decisions for entire populations, politicians are.

It is about women's rights when it's the woman's body supporting the parasite and it's the woman who has to go through with the birth. It's literally about what happens to their body. Pregnancy and giving birth is a big fucking deal, the pain of giving birth has been equated to having a limb just torn right off. It also affects your social relations, ability to work etc.

once /if the kid is born, it's a child of both parents, but as the pregnancy / childbirth affects only the mother's body (in very drastic ways), it should be solely the mother's decision.

I don't recall them being pro-life, just that Carolyn wants a baby (because she's nearly too old to try) and that Aquafina decides she wants to have the baby when she learns she's actually pregnant.

It was kind of funny how Carolyn plans for Aquafina to do what rich women did when having babies out of wedlock was taboo (run away for a while with an excuse in order to have the baby somewhere else).

The issue is that making fun of men gets praise from mainstream media but making fun of women gets cries of sexism and misogyny from said mainstream media. That's the problem; you're only allowed to make fun of people that won't get everyone else to overwhelmingly call you a terrible person.

I'm annoyed by the message of the episode and the reasoning behind two of the main characters getting an abortion for no good reason, not the satirical jokes made about men.

And politicians set standards for medicine all the time. No one says anything about it until it's abortion. Why is this?

They're not obligated to raise any rugrats fag.

I'll never understand why men supposedly aren't concerned by abortion. Child birth impacts life way beyond the actual giving birth part.

That being said I'm pro legal abortion. No not "pro choice" because I'm not a gutless faggot who has to frame all of my opinions in a deceptively positive fashion.

>Why is abortion singled out as the one medical decision men apparently are incapable of being rational about?
No one is saying that men can't be rational about abortion; you're strawmanning. They're saying that when you are talking about abortions you should probably at least have some women contributing to that discussion. It'd be like if they had a panel talking about whether men should get vasectomies and there were no men.

>It'd be like if they had a panel talking about whether men should get vasectomies and there were no men
No one cares about men's issues.

They had no reason to not have children, shitdick.

What kind of heterosexual couple stays married beyond their 30's without having any offspring? It's fucking retarded.

I'd want the panel to be made up of professionals in the field that have the education and knowledge about the procedures. Being a member of a gender doesn't give you any special knowledge.

>They had no reason to not have children
Yes they did. They didn't want any.

>Why is abortion singled out as the one medical decision men apparently are incapable of being rational about?

Probably because there's a surprising amount of instances where men in power make extremely false and weird and clearly purely emotion-ridden statements about abortion, such as "a woman's body has ways to shut the pregnancy down if it's rape" or other such bullshit. Demonstrably there's a lot of men who have enthusiastic opinions about abortions but who at the same time believe weird fairy dust tier bullshit about it. The same thing doesn't happen in things related to dental care, for example.

Questions like "when does life begin?" aren't more easily answered by members of one sex.

What if that all-male Women's Health Panel was made up exclusively of brilliant (male) doctors specializing in gynecology, obstetrics, and oncology of uterus, ovaries, etc.?

This notion that only women have something to say about abortion is mere identity politics.

Yes, this is my safe space to vent.

if they can find men to care about abortion, you're telling me they can't find men to care about men's issues?

men are half the population, so clearly if men had issues I'm sure more than some of you all would speak up

How the fuck is that sexist?
It takes 2 to tango.

Vasectomies are hardly an "issue".
The real hook is having fundies get pissy and start throwing rocks and shit. Then you got a party,

I might argue we put a ton of funding into those implants that prevent pregnancy by blocking off the womb or cutting off the potency valve in sperm, and then require everyone to get those implants, to be removed only when a couple is ready willing and able to have a child.

Yeah your immediate reaction is to cry dystopia and hands off my body/rights, but if it prevents pregnancy except in its most desired and healthy form, then why would it be such a problem?

So men can be trusted with pediatrics..medical issues involving female sex organs... Medical issues involving pregnancy... Medical issues involving female secondary sex characteristics.. Cosemtic surgery for female body parts and image..

But abortion is one and only one specific instance in which it's too much. Sounds pretty irrational to me.

> My ovaries makes me an expert on the philosophical understanding of human life and its inception, and the societal ramifications of laying the groundwork for mass eugenics

>Yeah your immediate reaction is to cry dystopia and hands off my body/rights
No. My immediate reaction was "that sounds like a great idea"

But these aren't issues where the only concern is if you are knowledgeable in the area. Whether someone should have an abortion doesn't have a right answer; it's dependent on a person's life experiences and viewpoints.

>Why is abortion singled out as the one medical decision men apparently are incapable of being rational about?
its not. there's a slew of diseases and ailments that basically are listed as 'mostly found in women, we're not sure what the cause, no known cure' which are also cited as indicative of a male slanted bias regarding research and testing in the medical field

You don't see headlines lamenting that men shouldn't get circumcised in modern times or that the draft is fucking stupid.

You don't see headlines about how divorce cases in general are heavily biased in favor of women, or how in general male rape and molestation regardless of who's doing it is just a joke.

Nah. I like kids but toddlers are gross piles of spit and poop.

this whole "when does life begin" argument is completely stupid in a country that still has the death penalty, police violence, and stand your ground laws. Americans love pushing platitudes about the sanctity of life when they are so quick to take it away.

Hey, as long as it's optional, then the only one you can blame for an unwanted pregnancy is your own careless arse, not that the situation today is that different either though

They didn't want children because they were afraid it would ruin their marriage, what kind of modern capable couple thinks like that?

I come from a family where my grandfather had 11 children and my eldest uncle had 7, they were both capable of providing for all of their children while keeping a healthy loving marriage, and my grandfather was a labor worker in the 50's-60's for God's sake.

If two richfags in Hollywood, who can afford a mansion and a Bentley, are that fucking scared of having a single child then humanity is a shell of its former self.

i don't know why Sup Forums has such strong opinions on abortion when none of you are gonna ever have kids, lmao

please speak more about how you are persecuted in our female dominated society.

>humanity is a shell of its former self
Have you ever considered that might be a good thing?

One says while 90% of focus on cancer seems to be aimed towards the mammaries

Maybe they just don't want children. Not everyone has what it takes to be a parent.

How are they related? You are failing to distinguish innocent life vs those that have made decisions that cost them their lives.

It's not female dominated, I'm just saying that men face tough shit too but people are only sympathetic towards women.

Both the genders have specific issues but it sucks that people only care about one gender. I honestly wish people would stop being passive aggressive and condescending about any talk with men's issues.

By a club.

I do.
maybe you should be browsing a wider range of news sources

Men can be qualified to talk about reproductive health, and still never know what it's like to be pregnant. To posit that men and women have equal seats at the (legislative) table, is disingenuous.

Children are a joint responsibility. But pregnancy is pretty one sided

I'm not pro-life but
>this whole "when does life begin" argument is completely stupid in a country that still has the death penalty, police violence, and stand your ground laws
That argument is retarded.
>Death Penalty
Imposed on people convicted of doing crimes punishable by death, not babies
>police violence
Literally every country on earth has police violence, what you mean to say is Black Lives Matter (which you clearly don't believe since black people are the prime users of abortion) but police shooting problem is a bullshit myth perpetuated by the media and professional victims. It is a black crime problem.
>stand your ground laws
A baby isn't a violent criminal threatening your safety.

Terrible argument, really awful.

People who don't want children.