Is this the secret best Star Wars movie?
Full disclosure, I think the PT is good. RotJ feels like the best parts of the PT and OT combined to me.
Vader feels more like PT Anakin in RotJ to me, for example.
But Anyway, I think RotJ is better at emotional moments than the other 5 movies.
Maybe it was Marquand's touch.
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It's the most emotional/saddest film so most fans can't handle their emotions properly and just lash out with hurt Ewoks suck when really they choked back tears when that one little guy died.
It also probably suffers the most from the special editions or whatever. New Hope is very obvious it's the SE but this may have been lost on some people with rotj
I'll just check myself here
And hurt = hurr
And ESB SE is actually awesome
I dislike the Jabba's palace music video, but the new ending song and montage work better as a finale to the six films than the original ending did for the three films IMO.
Just remember
Victory Celebration>>>>>>>>>>Yub Nub
Yub Nub feels anticlimactic as fuck when compared to VC. Also VC is a way better composition.
This is probably bait but fuck it, I'll bite.
RotJ has some of the best moments in the series in the Luke/Vader/Sheev stuff but it suffers a lot in the Luke/Leia/Chewie/droids subplot, Han does nothing except open a door, the Leia being Luke's secret sister plot twist feels like a very lousy attempt to one-up the Darth Daddy twist, Death Star 2.0. was fucking lazy.
If they'd gotten rid of the Ewoks and just had the Endor sequence be about the rebels going all Vietcong-mode on the storm troopers, it would have been the best.
Uh didn't Han fucking kill Boba Fett?
>Death Star 2.0. was fucking lazy.
Reminder that it was originally going to be Coruscant but they couldn't do it justice in pre-CG days.
Idk if it's the best, but it's certainly my favorite. Nothing beats Jabbas palace imo.
The throne room scene alone elevates it enough for me that I can overlook the rest of the flaws. I don't know if I'd say it's the "secret best" movie but it's almost tied for second for me.
The Sarlacc found him somewhat undigestible.
Well, ORIGINALLY originally, it was supposed to be the lava planet Had Abbadon, an Outer Rim Imperial stronghold where the Emperor had a giant lava palace. I feel like that was doable even by 1983 standards, I wonder what made them shy away from that.
It is objectively the most epic and therefore the best.
ESB isn't the best. However I will accept ANH for the number 1 spot.
ESB is only the best in a technical film production sense.
>I think RotJ is better at emotional moments than the other 5 movies
ESB has always been full of emotion for me. From Luke almost dying in the beginning, to Han and Leia dancing around their feelings for each other the whole time and then finally expressing their love right before Han gets frozen in carbonite, to Luke having to choose between saving his friends lives and risking letting the Dark Side win or letting his friends die for the greater good, and then the most obvious of Luke learning Vader is his father......
Plus all the smaller emotional moments throughout. I really love all three OT movies (PT are fine but have almost zero emotional draw for me) and RotJ definitely has some powerful stuff, but I still think ESB is the most emotional by far.
Wait, what?
I thought Had Abbadon was GL's name for Coruscant.
Have you ever cried at ESB? Rotj has at least two moments.
the luke vader stuff is the highlight of the series but there's some trash in there too that brings the movie down
Eh, ESB feels too sterile to me. Like a Fincher movie or something.
The only part that gets me is at the end when Luke calls to Leia.
It's pretty great. I feel like it closes out the series in the best way possible. Vader's characterization is a bit softer, than the previous film, which is understandable considering the events in the film that connect him back to his life, pre-Empire. Some people take it as an insult thinking he should always be hard edged, but it works in favour of his character development and redemption.
Ewoks were fine, but the alternative prospect of Wookies probably would have worked better/been more believable in the battle segments. Although you could make the argument that Imperial troops would have taken the Ewoks more for granted, which led to their collective asses getting handed to them, for the most part. Either way, it made for some nice set pieces.
Final sequences, including the space battle were probably the best in the series. It's well laid out, it takes its time and it's paced well enough that you can get a fulfilling finality to the plot, but not compromise on the action and end up boring the audience in exposition.
As a kid, I always felt this was the most fun of the Star Wars movies, which made it my favourite. Looking at it today, I still think it is the most fun, but I've come to appreciate the soundtrack and imagery in ESB a bit more. Still good all around though.
>Have you ever cried at ESB
Still today every time I watch it Han and Leia's moment before he gets frozen makes me tear up. The only moment in RotJ that does that for me is when Anakin dies.
>and imagery in ESB
I unironically think that opening up Cloud City in the SE saved ESB. I know it did for me. I hated CLoud City as a kid becausee it felt so small and empty and the matte paintings behind the parked falcon were scary like Cuphead era cartoons are scary.
There's an argument that it was meant to be like that, but there's also the fact that they couldn't have done it as large scale as the SE did back then.
I like ewoks
Reminder that unchecked Satanic trips is 10,000 years of assplay with a pineapple in the afterlife
I like Ike
I completely agree. The SE seriously enhances ESB in every way. I really think that aside from the Jabba's Palace music video (and to a lesser degree the Jabba scene in ANH--not a bad scene but a completely different Jabba than in RotJ) the original SEs actually were great. It was only after the prequels that the "updates"/changes started to really ruin shit. Changing the Emperor's face in ESB, changing Anakin's ghost in RotJ, adding the "NNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" when Vader saves Luke.....just fucking terrible.
I agree. I think ESB had some of the best Special Edition treament, where it largely expanded the movie and added to it cohesively, without adding a ton of needless scenes or being to show-offy. But I still think the imagery in the original version holds up. Everything in the Carbonite freezing chamber looks great, along with the rest of the more industrial parts of Bespin. Hoth battle scenes with snow troopers storming the base and Dagobah always stuck with me very vividly.
I am completely fine with the SE adding Hayden to RotJ and Ian to ESB.
>Changing the Emperor's face in ESB
But that wasn't a bad change, and it was done for continuity's sake rather than for no reason at all.
Yub Nub to credits sounds substantially better than the Victory Celebration's transformation
>I am completely fine with the SE adding Hayden to RotJ and Ian to ESB
It doesn't make sense for the same reason that the Jabba scene in ANH doesn't make sense, you're noticeable changing the character's physical appearance, and it's jarring as fuck. CGI Jabba, "new" Palpatine, and Hayden Christiansen all look very out of place in the movies
The story of the OT was about Luke reconciling his relationship with Vader and becoming a Jedi in his own very personal story.
Empire vs Rebels was just the setting, not the story itself. The notion that the empire has to be totally defeated by the end of rotj doesnt make any sense and misses the point misses the point
The new version is much more jarring and weird than the original. I'm not saying it was a bad idea to change it, but the actual execution looks terrible.
Notice how I said the SIX films.
I agree with this. I'm not a fan of the added montage tying it into the prequels. The prequels and the OT are two different, separate stories. There are a few common elements and characters, but the focus and the actual story are completely different.
When we finish one story arc, why the fuck would we want to randomly have a montage of places from the previous story arc?
It's not the best but it's still easily better than everything that came after (before) it. It's the go-to entry for young sub-27 or so idiots to go to to shit on, when they compile their personal rankings, to "prove that they have cred and have seriously considered the series in its entirety" to their other young stupid cohorts who also had the misfortune in being raped/culturally genitally mutilated by actually being kids when the PT came out so that they actually think it's good, worth thinking about, worth defending.
So, these under-30 or so culturally cuckolded cadres commonly post rankings along the lines of: V > IV > III >>> TFA > R1 > I > VI > II, or other such garbage. The essential feature of such rankings is that they /mix/ the three existing blocks in order to feign a misguided "objectivity" or mature analysis of the whole when no such effort is warranted. The OT is, in its entirety, better than everything that came afterwards. It told a complete and gratifying, self-contained story, innovating in each installment. IT is, the dragon that everyone has been chasing ever since.
ROTJ specifically also contained the beautiful visual language of Jabba the Hutt, Leia's tasteful brass-bikini fan service, the Emperor's Throne Room, the lambda shuttle, AT-STs, the (audio) whooshing of speeder bikes. Never mind that all of this actually told a /gratifying and coherent conclusion-story/ to everything that had gone before, a feat in a third installment miserably failed in, for example, the third Matrix movie, something which was desperately trying to do something like what ROTJ had successfully done, and which crashed and burned in the effort.
This thread's topic aside, ROTJ opens up a general discussion about /the third installment/. It typically sucks, but once in a while it's extremely important (Friday the 13th (hockey mask), Goldfinger).
>Unironically not naming ESB as the best Star Wars
>The prequels and the OT are two different, separate stories.
I mean, not really. RotJ is the resolution to RotS.
In the context of a six film saga, only ANH really feels like it's not focusing on the things you would expect a sequel to RotS to focus on.
>when the PT came out so that they actually think it's good, worth thinking about, worth defending.
RotS is much better than ANH.
And the best part is, you can still pretend that Lucas is a hack while holding this opinion, because Carrie Fisher, Tom Stoppard, and Steven Spielberg are responsible for about half the film.
>you're noticeable changing the character's physical appearance
Your argument's invalid when you consider that the woman they used in the original scene looks nothing like Ian McDiarmid and the dubbed voice sounds nothing like him either. I won't argue the Hayden inclusion, it just ties the six films together, which I appreciate. I'm sure if you manifest yourself as a Force ghost, you can look like whatever you want. With Jabba, they at least attempted to rectify the horror that was the original SE release and made him appear closer to his appearance in RotJ, in future releases. All in all , it was a fluff scene that should have been excised from the film entirely, like it originally was.
I know someone who ranks it as the 4th best Star Wars film. FOURTH
Even as someone who is very accepting of people's unpopular opinions regarding film, I'll always be utterly baffled by this
I feel like maybe you have to be an oldfag who grew up with the OT to appreciate ROTJ. Like everyone seems to hate Ewoks but they always seemed fine to me and perfectly in theme with the rest of the story, in that they represent innocence, bravery, friendship etc overcoming evil despite overwhelming odds.
But that might just be because I'll always associate the movie with endlessly rewatching it on VHS as an 8 year old. If I'd seen it when I was older I'd probably think Ewoks were faggots like everyone else.
I hate to use the b word, but ESB felt the most boring to me as a kid. I like it just as much as the others now, but first impressions are everything.
You're right about ewoks. Everyone says wookies would have been better for the battle, but thematically Ewoks make more sense. They are the unexpected underdogs just like the rebels. The Empire loses because they constantly underestimate their enemy/overestimate their own power in any given environment. If you have them get completely annihilated by wookies, it would have admittedly been cooler or look less silly, but less meaningful at the same time
Maybe. Like you said, they're fine in line with the film itself. When you look at the behind the scenes, development and potential for other things, they might not appear so great in contrast. But I've shown the original trilogy off to a few people for their first time, that were well into their 20s, and they didn't seem to care about them one way or another. Probably just an internet thing anyway.
I actually would be interested to hear your rebuttal/response. I think your mindset is ridiculous, but I also think that you're being sincere.
Honestly the original ESB Emperor looked better and was better acted than McDiarmid hamming it up. I can understand why it was changed but it's unfortunate that it changed the atmosphere of the scene and made it worse
>RotS bla-de-bla~~
Single dumbest Sup Forums post over the past year. The rhetoric in the latter bit isn't perfectly clear but it kind of doesn't matter. You don't seem to appreciate that the charm of the first two films, why even younglings almost (correctly) universally place them atop the rankings, is because /they have some humor/. /Some god-damn camp to help the medicine go down, but not too much/. This is exactly what early, great Star Wars has in common with early, great Star Trek: some Camp, but not too much. Jedi still had some humor to it, but it was a more formal project by that point. Ever since it's been a turgid turd with quips masquerading as etc.
>RotJ is the resolution to RotS
No it isn't. If anything, Ben and Vader's fight in ANH is the resolution to RotS. The plot of the prequels is Anakin's journey to the dark side, and Obi-Wan's relationship with Anakin during this time.
The plot of the OT is Luke's journey to becoming a Jedi, Han's journey from being a loner smuggler to becoming a true friend to Luke and falling in love with Leia, and Leia's journey from stuck-up Princess to falling in love with Han and finding family in Luke.
The background to these stories is the fall of the Republic, and then the defeat of the Empire, but that isn't what the stories are actually about.
And nothing whatsoever in the OT feels related to the PT. I mean the three main characters aren't even in the PT.
This post has confusing language in the sense that you're addressing two posts with opposing points of view and asking for (one) rebuttal. Because you are addressing two posters(?), it is unclear exactly who you have in mind with the ridiculous/sincere language.
For the record I'm the autist who wrote this long post and I also wrote this follow-up .
well to be fair, it seems like everyone's opinion of Star Wars is rooted in which one they watched (if any) at a young age. I saw Empire at just the right age, where it left an impression but i was just old enough to appreciate the emotion and importance of what was happening.
>Victory Celebration>>>>>>>>>>Yub Nub
Billy Dee is clapping off rhythm to Victory Celebration, that shit would never happen
>And nothing whatsoever in the OT feels related to the PT.
Disagree. RotJ Vader's story feels like the conclusion to the PT.
>I mean the three main characters aren't even in the PT.
Not true.
This is very true. I fell in love with these movies when I was 4 years old in the early 90s, and I never gave the Ewoks a second thought until the internet blew up and I saw people talking shit about them. It is absolutely astounding how jaded people are today because of the internet, and they don't even realize it.
>>RotS bla-de-bla~~
Come on now. Engaging with the post won't kill you.
ANH: favorite
ESB: best
ROJ: one you always want to watch
>It is absolutely astounding how jaded people are today because of the internet, and they don't even realize it.
Which is why we got sequels where the handsome rogue and the princess got a divorce and the hero becomes a past that runs away
Opinions, but I get you. I remember watching the OT as a kid and wondering if they were supposed to be the same character, between films. Original ESB Palpatine sounded too collected and proper, it didn't match his portrayal in RotJ. Just watching the reshoot of the scene in ESB, I think Jones and McDiarmid did a decent job keeping the characters in sync. Ian isn't pulling a batshit insane performance a la Sith. It's pretty reserved.
I did that as far as it could reasonably have been done at the time (there's not a lot to work with in that post). The onus is on the other user to clarify intention and his central wrong opinion, the better to expose it.
past = pussy
>RotJ Vader's story feels like the conclusion to the PT
I don't think it does. The characters are so different I don't even see them as the same person. Original Vader feels nothing like prequel Anakin, never has and never will, no matter what retarded shit Lucas adds in.
>Not true.
Their birth at the very end of the movie doesn't count. I shouldn't even have to say that.
Empire is the best kino but Jedi has so many amazing moments. Best fight, Vader's redemption, so forth. The last half hour is unbeatable.
looks dank as fuck tbqh
>. The characters are so different I don't even see them as the same person. Original Vader feels nothing like prequel Anakin
Very much disagree. That's correct in ANH and ESB, but by RotJ the conception of the character has changed.
>I MUST obey my master
This is a more pathetic and cucked human being than the one who wanted to join with Luke to rule the galaxy in the last film.
Very good point. I was genuinely so excited to have an experience with these characters again who I grew up loving and feeling like I knew so personally, and although I did enjoy TFA I was extremely disappointed with virtually all of their story choices for the three original main characters. They are almost nothing like their original characters, just like prequel Anakin vs. Original Vader don't feel at all like the same person.
this 100 percent
As the guy who wrote that post I think it was fairly clear, but i'll further clarify.
Carrie Fisher and Tom Stoppard (The Last Crusade) did script polishing, and Steven Spielberg directed many sequences in the movie.
That combined with RotS having the most conent that Lucas actually had an idea of beforehand and not largely improvised like the previous two films add up to a more engaging and worthwhile film.
Being this contrarian
TFA is just a pointless mearndering mess that has nothing to say.
Firing Arndt (or him leaving; whatever), was what fucked the movie.
>>I MUST obey my master
>This is a more pathetic and cucked human being than the one who wanted to join with Luke to rule the galaxy in the last film.
When is the last time you actually watched the movies? In RotJ both Vader and the Emperor are telling Luke to kill the Emperor so they can rule as father and son. That was always the plan. Vader was never actually going to kill Luke, just pushing him to the dark side. Only when Luke completely gave up and said he was never going to turn and they failed, then it became a reality that Luke was going to be killed. But yeah, the motivation of Vader didn't change throughout the three movies. It was only explored more deeply after ANH obviously, but his motivation and characterization don't change in the last two movies.
Again, I disagree. Vader is more pathetic in ROtJ. I can feel Hayden behind the mask in RotJ when I can't in ANH and ESB.
Did you see the prequels before the OT?
Nah. I'm only 20 but I grew up with the (unaltered) OT and TPM on VHS. Then the other two prequels as they came out.
Strengths and weaknesses. Rescuing Han has nothing to do with anything else but they have to resolve it in some way. Then not a lot really happens until the very end.
But the end confrontation between Luke and Vader is the best scene of the series.
Nice to see quality discussion on this board, and particularly nice considering the subject
It surprises me that you view it that way, then. Since I grew up with the OT, and the prequels didn't come out until I was 12, I've always watched the prequels looking for Vader's character in Hayden Christiansen, whereas you watch Vader looking for Hayden Christensen. Just different viewpoints from different people, I guess.
I think that time and Disney pumping put SW movies from here to infinity has made it possible to have a calm Star Wars talk again, at least once in a while.
It took me a while. While I always loved the six movies pretty much equally, they were two separate entities in mind in a way.
If anything helped me to view them as one it was The Clone Wars and Rebels shows.
They manage to blur the line between the different "feel" of the two trilogies for me.
But I HATED The Clone Wars show for years.
It took me until TFA came out to reevaluate Ahsoka- because I had a feeling that she was both better than Rey, and better than I remembered.
/blog
in my mind*
I've tried watching The Clone Wars a few times, starting from the beginning or just watching a random episode, but it just feels to immature to me. The dialogue is so obviously written for a children's show, I just couldn't get past it. I wish I could have watched it when I was younger, I think I'm just too old. Same with Rebels now. But I can see how that would help join the two arcs together, that's actually the main reason I wanted to watch it.
For The Clone Wars you have to be selective with the episodes in the first couple seasons, if you think they're too immature. It's definitely meant to appeal more to children than the movies, so you're not wrong. But by the third season, it gets a little more grounded. I remember most every episode in the last couple seasons of the series being very watchable.
The beginning is more kiddie than the end. And Rebels is more kiddie in general save for a few key moments like Vader and Ahsoka's final confrontation.
If you want to take one final shot, watch the second battle of Geonosis arc. THe arc is 4 eps long and the first one is just action, but the second episode of the arc is what finally really got me into the series. Just a solid little character piece for Anakin and Ahsoka.
If I sound like a shill it's because I used to hate this show, but finally found a mindset where I understood what it was doing and I want to share that.
>looks nothing like Ian McDiarmid
To be fair, the old, fat McDiarmid and the makeup of the prequel-era doesn't look very much like the ROTJ emperor, either. Neither are going to look like what we see in the following movie, but I'd rather see the original because it's somewhat less jarring (the original version is very shadowy and doesn't look nearly as different as the new version) and I prefer the dialogue of the scene. The ideal solution might be McDiarmid dubbing new lines for the old emperor, or some kind of de-aging, if you really want continuity that much.
And Hayden showing up as a force ghost completely ruins the ending and meaning of ROTJ. Darth Vader was supposed to redeem himself at the end; the entire point is that by sacrificing himself to save his son, the good in him can finally take over, and he's saved. That's why Luke keeps talking about the good in him, and goes on the suicide mission in the first place: to save his father. Sticking Hayden in the end sends across the message that Anakin really did die during the prequel era and that he really wasn't saved.
>And Hayden showing up as a force ghost completely ruins the ending and meaning of ROTJ. Darth Vader was supposed to redeem himself at the end; the entire point is that by sacrificing himself to save his son, the good in him can finally take over, and he's saved. That's why Luke keeps talking about the good in him, and goes on the suicide mission in the first place: to save his father. Sticking Hayden in the end sends across the message that Anakin really did die during the prequel era and that he really wasn't saved.
Not this shit again. Anakin is allowed to return to who he was before the dark side took hold of him.
Anakin Skywalker was never that old man. Anakin Skywalker was trapped inside that old mand.
>Anakin Skywalker was weak. I destroyed him.
Bane?
Yeah, I get it. Still, I don't think the McDiarmid reshoot looks that bad and I still prefer it in comparison, but personal opinion. The original voice I still think is best replaced. It's just too genteel for Palpatine.
The Hayden argument I can see both sides having a valid opinion. Aside from that, taking the OT purely as its own thing, obviously old, fat Anakin makes more sense, then to have some young guy just walk in. But looking at it as a six film series, I really don't have a problem with it.
because if you really look at it its retarded
I agree with many here, the best of RotJ is the best of the OT. Jabbas Palace had a bit of an odd story setup but it's a great set piece. The ewoks were awkward but other scenes in the forest like the speeder chase are great. Everything with Sheev and the Skywalkers is amazing, and still has some emotional punch at the end to this day when I watch it now. The Star Wars ending being as satisfying as it is is a legitimate achievement, especially considering how hyped they probably were at the time and how many other series fail in this regard.
Putting aside where you rank it in the film series, what do you guys think about TFA, especially as a sequel to the OT?
I think it's half baked as hell, but it's just too milquetoast for me to really drum up a lot of hatred for it. Although I do kind of hate it.
If it was just mediocre whatever but they seem to be actively shitting on Luke and the OT
Jabbas palace served to show off Luke's skill and change in personality
>threatens Jabba with death
>force chokes those 2 gamorreans at once with no effort
If I said anything about TFA, it would just be an echo of everything else you've heard. It feels like it was made by committee to appeal to a broad audience, while they go through a checklist to make sure they hit all the right marks. If anything, it's made me more appreciative the uniqueness of a number of things Star Wars related prior to it, all previous films included. So I guess there's that. But overall, it was a bad start for me and I have no interest in seeing any future Star Wars projects, unless there was some facet of the creative team that piqued my interest. So far nothing though.
My old co-worker would play star wars music sometimes. Every time I hear the music for the ewok dying I giggle like a sodomized christian school girl
Satans Trips speak the truth
It was, its just that the concept of what it was changed with different drafts.
The centralization of all three stories to a single defined location.
>but it's just too milquetoast for me to really drum up a lot of hatred for it. Although I do kind of hate it.
Pretty much my exact feelings. I've watched it once in the theater and once at home. In the theater I was overcome with nostalgia so I loved the whole experience without giving anything any actual thought. When it ended I felt so great, then immediately after I started realizing how many things pissed me off or just sucked, and over the next few days I realized I really hated what they did to the original characters. I watched it again when it came out on dvd and while I still enjoy it as a movie, I honestly don't even see it as "canon", more like some silly fanfic with a really high budget.
Honestly I view it how I view the prequels: technically the same characters in the same universe, but not REALLY the same characters and a completely different story. Almost like a re-imagining. To me, nothing but the OT will ever really be Star Wars.
A good thread on my Sup Forums? Say it aint so
For all the arguments that can be made against it I will say this:
It was actually a Star Wars movie. Now you can make a movie and put "Star Wars" on its title card, that's sort of what Rogue One and the prequels are, but that aren't actually Star Wars movies. Not in the emotional and creative sense that is. They don't give you the same sense of childlike wonder or genuine enjoyment that the original trilogy always gives. Its something hard to quantify but its there. I've seen the phrase "alien but familiar" used to describe Star Wars before and I think it fits.
For all of Force Awakens problems I DID get that feeling again. The feeling I was watching Star Wars.