Does this mean Ben is turning good again?

Does this mean Ben is turning good again?

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Is that bagley?

But that's Spidercide

Its probably Otto.

Spider-Gwen is getting a male clone with all her memories?

What if the remaining clone body was made using Spidercide's?

Yeah it is. One of my favorite comic book artists. About time they brought him back.

He's not Ben.
Calling him Ben doesn't make him Ben.
He's less Ben than Kaine is Peter.

>Kept the excessive and wrong muscle detail and Liefeld feet.

Shame, his art was always best when simplifying the linework.

NuBen

Its ben.

Yeah in what world is he not Ben?? He's Ben's mind and memories put into a new clone body over and over but still Ben's mind and soul, just twisted from all the deaths Warren put him through.

By your logic we should jusy call him peter because thats all he is

There is already a Peter.

By your logic every time Deadpool regenerates from death, he's a new person.

But Ben was just Peter's mind and memories put into a new clone body. By that logic, JackalBen is just Peter.

Obviously not because remembers all those memories of years in exile on the road with Kaine hunting him and all the time as Spider-man when Peter and MJ moved away, and memories up until his death and then all the memories of dying again and again by the Jackal's experiments. So he's a different person from Peter, how would that make any sense to call him Peter? Peter doesn't have those memories cause he's not Ben

No he's supposed to be an edgy antihero.

So if someone were to make another Ben clone from his original remains, would that new clone or would Jackal count as the real Ben?

We call O5 Cyclops Cyclops despite having different memories.

Only if that clone body had Ben's consciousness. I don't like that they are saying with the New U you can just transport the person's consciousness and feel it's a plot hole and unrealistic, cloning is one thing but that seems ridiculous, but that's what Slott's saying basically. Or at least that's how I take it. Ben has a memory from all the 22 times he died and his consciousness is carried over just into a new body like a new shell. So the way I understand it is that it's still Ben's consciousness - his heart, soul, memories, and personality - just transferred into a new physical body....basically mind teleportation/transfer

>Kaine is Peter up until cloning, but isn't Peter.
>New Ben is a clone of Ben at death, and then a clone of that clone once he died, and a clone of that clone once HE died, and...twenty seven times.

By your logic, if Peter died Ben would just be Peter. That's fucking retarded.

The final issue of clone conspiracy makes it apparent that, no, it does not transfer consciousness at all. It's exactly the same as regular cloning. The clones have memories up to where they were cloned, and the originals don't recall shit.

How could Ben be Peter? Peter has no memory of dying over and over again like Ben did and no memory of the years in exile as Ben does. How would Peter get those memories if he was never Ben? They can only transfer consciousness into a new body, not transfer memories and a mind of someone else into another person's mind. Your logic makes no fucking sense.

We don't know it's Ben or not. It has been left vague enough to argue both ways.

Which frustrate me to no end. They should just come out and say "it has his old soul because..." or "Not same person"and don't leave us hanging and arguing to death about it.

Still, the series will have Aracely and Kaine, so I'm definitely picking it up for them.

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>The final issue of clone conspiracy makes it apparent that, no, it does not transfer consciousness at all. It's exactly the same as regular cloning. The clones have memories up to where they were cloned, and the originals don't recall shit.

Unless those in the tanks are exceptions because they weren't dead?

>It has been left vague enough to argue both ways.

It really isn't. It's clearly not Ben, just another clone. The 26th clone of Ben, to be accurate.

The "Ben" we know also has no memories of dying over and over again. He died. The end.

If Peter died when he was cloned, that wouldn't make Ben "Peter" from that point forward. He would be a clone of Peter. A man with the same memories up to that point, but a different soul (souls are canon in Marvel, don't give me any shit about that). The cloning process doesn't circumvent death: it creates new life in a similar template. Both Clone Sagas are pretty adamant about this.

Just because Ben fucking died doesn't mean this new guy is the same Ben. He's another clone in a linear procession named Ben. Peter and Ben, at the moment Ben first emerged, were not the same person. It doesn't work that way.

>They can only transfer consciousness into a new body
This has never, ever happened in Spider-Man cloning. Memories carry over, but consciousness does not.

If you call a new person the same as their template just because the template fucking died, we may as fucking well call Joyce Delaney "Gwen."

They specifically told us he was cloned several times over, so no, he's not "Ben." He literally can't be. Unless they tell us "JK, he was never cloned, we just made him THINK he was!" he's not Ben Reily the First.

That makes absolutely no sense and nothing in the Clone Conspiracy backs up the clones being anything other than normal ass fucking clones.

The easy way out would have been to say the Ben we saw die was a different clone who got swapped in RIGHT at the end and this guy is the actual Ben.

I have no fucking idea why they didn't do that.

>This has never, ever happened in Spider-Man cloning.

Normal cloning. This is possibly something else due that "psychyc I don't know what" stuff.

Which may end being bollocks but at least there is something different in the procedure.

We know it's not true in the case of people who aren't dead in that moment (Peter, Prowler, all the frozen guys). But still not concrete, not up for discussion answer or confirmation in the case of people who are dead.

His name is BOtton

There is zero proof of "psychyc I don't know what stuff."

All good points and feel there's some grey areas but then answer me this. How is it that all the first Gewn Stacy clones ( and there's been alot of them dating all the way back to the 70's OG gwen clone in the original clone saga ) - how is it that all thse Gwen clones never had memories of being on the bridge and dying? They were always like, "what who am I? Where am I?" They never said, "I remember finding out you were spider-man as I layed there on the bridge and then was falling and then black" none of the original Gwen clones remembered dying because their consciousness hadn't been transferred. Their memories had but only some because the New U technology is more advanced and can transfer more than just memories now.

In the comics Peter even accepts that it's Ben

I don't know what's less believable.
Otto winning and taking over Ben's body means Slott gave away his husbando to some writer that isn't Slott.
Ben winning means Otto is dead and Slott would basically sacrifice his husbando over a character he asspulled out of the dead.

Listen, if take writers and characters in Spider-Man at face value after the Clone Saga, OMD, and half of Slott's run, you're insane.

Here's how it's gonna go down, because this is the same shit as Superior. As long as sales are good, they're not going to address the plothole. The second sales are down? They're going to address the plothole and reveal the fans were RIGHT that Peter can't ACTUALLY be gone because that doesn't work that way/Ben isn't REALLY Ben because he's so far removed, and then they'll sweep it up for the next event.

I think the writers should just make the opening arc be Ben being tortured by Dr Octopus (both survived) and Ben willingly enduring what he suffers until Kaine frees him.

Afterwords Ben begs Kaine to kill him, because he's a monster but Kaine refuses. Kaine realizes Ben had a god-damn nervous breakdown and pointing out that he himself did equally bad shit before finding redemption, decides that he needs to help Ben recover from what was done to him.

Kaine gives Ben the Scarlet Spider mantle back and the book basically, becomes the Clone Brothers book with Ben dealing with PTDS and Kaine as his BFF Clone Brother helping him recover and redeem himself.

>In the comics Peter even accepts that it's Ben

And later tells Gwen she can't be the original Gwen.

Discrepancy in responses because of emotion or bad writing?

Albeit, he doesn't fucking know. Nor does Ben, Gwen or any of the people in comic. Not one of them is a soul expert or can run some magic to do determine it.

So unless Clone Conspiracy Omega has Dr. Strange or Aracely telling us one way or the other, I'm going to pretend whatever I'm more comfortable with when I pick the series.

>how is it that all thse Gwen clones never had memories of being on the bridge and dying?
Because we established back in the 90's Clone Saga that clones have different levels of awareness/ability to recall based on how well made they are and happenstance. We also established during that period that you can just invent new personas and memories for your clones if you so choose (Spidercide).

Nothing about the newest Gwen Clone violates the previously established rules. It's just a surface level pull to say "BUT GUYS WHAT ABOUT THIS" and get you to buy the premise despite it being retarded.

>In the comics Peter even accepts that it's Ben
Peter also

*Decided Peter Parker is dead and that he's THE SPIDER.
*Accepted that he was the REAL clone because a friend of his clone said so.
*Accepted that he was the real deal, then a clone, then the real deal again because the Jackal said so...in the span of a few minutes.
*Sold his unborn child to Satan.

What Peter thinks is irrelevant because we know Peter jumps to retarded conclusions and is a gullible, short sighted git very often. This is like the fifth fucking time he's been convinced a Gwen clone is Gwen.

This actually makes sense in terms of best case scenarios.

Ben and Kaine together, with the writers addressing the issue of super-hero PTSD would make a lot more sense in terms of addressing Ben's character derailment.

Came here to post this.

>Ben thinks he's Peter
>Spidercide thinks he's Ben
>Kaine doesn't know what the fuck is going on
>Jackal is laughing his ass off the whole time
>Aracelly is chilling in Mictlan

Jackal brought ben back mutiple times. Ben then made failed carrion prone clones.

Not the same.

>And later tells Gwen she can't be the original Gwen.

Shit, I can't believe I didn't notice how differently Peter treats the Ben and Gwen clones until now. Maybe it's just because he's dealt with so many Gwen clones but never any Ben clones, but you can't insist that one is a clone while the other is something more when they're both made using the same process. This looks like yet another fuck-up on Slott's part.

>I got the wrong thread
Well fuck.

New page of HUMMINGBIRD'S CHAMPIONS the Scarlet Spiders (or whatever catchy title might apply) here

>namefag is retarded
Not surprising.

>definitely a good chance
That's a polite way of saying "no."

Only retard is you.

The book shows the facts.

When the story began, I speculated that the Jackal had found a way to recover a dead person's soul and bind it to a clone body that would deteriorate without the pills that only he could provide.

Then when it was revealed that "Ben" was the new Jackal, I thought this was how they were going to explain it. Jackal abducts Ben shortly before the end of the 90s Clone Saga, replaces him with another clone so that no one questions his disappearance, then tries to brainwash him with only partial success.

Both of these are better options than what we got.

Kaine doesn't have any of Peter's memories. It's one of the many reasons Warren declared him a failure.

>Jackal can't bring back the objectively best clone
Fuck you too Hickman.

Ben was always a clone in Peter's mind not counting the time when Peter thought he was the clone. It's easier to rationalize that a clone of a clone is still a clone. A clone of a person is not that person. On top of that, Peter probably refused to accept any Gwen clone as the real Gwen because that would open up an emotional Pandora's box that he doesn't want to deal with.

don't die thread

I hope

He's getting his old costume eventually. It's Ben.

>Jackal brought ben back mutiple times.
No he didn't. He made a copy of Ben, then a copy of that copy, then a copy of that copy, then a copy of that copy, etc. Ben is still dead.

OK, this is such an awesome cover

That costume is shit. Go back to the original one.