We're the xmen ever good?

We're the xmen ever good?

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They are the most popular superhero team ever for a reason

X-Men been up and down, good and bad, running in cycles. Just like any other 50-80 year old franchise. You just have to take a little time and find the stuff at you personally like.

I liked them up until the mid '00s, they're unrecognizable now

I honestly never expected such positive replies

Most of the people that grew up in 90s and watched the cartoon and found the comics will always love the X-Men.

Their 90's costumes are over rated

The Phoenix saga was a mega hit in the 70's, 80's and they have been milking its success ever since

When the writers and artists move to image comics
This franchise started to slip and faluterd

Bendis put the final nail in the coffin

There's simply TOO much x-men to say if it's good or bad

Do you really think there's one person out there who's read EVERYTHING x men related?

> most popular
Cmon Justice League?

Thinks somebody ran a story time of Uncanny from beginning to end

Or maybe it was just Claremont

I loved them until mid 00s or so (maybe Unstoppable was the last thing I truly enjoyed apart from Uncanny X-Force and PAD's X-Factor)

Nowadays they dont feel like the X-Men I liked so much. I wish I could believe in Marvel when they say they'll bring back the glory days but...

I consider them the best superhero team ever and strongly recommend the 80s, early-mid 90s and Grant Morrison's stuff.

There are people here who shelf display everything X-Men related.

But the X-Men were no longer very good by the time of the OP's picture.
Also Jim Lee is one of the most boring yet proficient comic artists of all time. So fucking boring.

Not as good as doom patrol

Lee is actually as bad at drawing realistic people as Liefeld, he's simply better at "comic book style" than Lolfield is.
Both of them learned to draw human beings from the works of older comic artists. Neither of them have a good grasp of anatomical detail.

Lee samefaces horribly, cookie-cutter exaggerated physiques errwhere, he's consciously avoided drawing hands and feet in the OP's pic for the most part, since he's only good at comic spatula feet, clenched fists and a few Kirby gestures...

The 90's were truly a dark time for comic book art, with all the youngsters just badly aping the old guys.

From where did Jubilee get the popcorn and soda?

Mojoverse

That's Dazzler pregnant with Shatterstar in the corner of thr picture after a Mojoverse civil war

My love for Storm can be traced back to the 90s cartoon. So sultry.

>JL is teh most poppolar
lol nobody gives two shits about anybody in the League besides Superman and Batman

X-Men comics can be good. It depends heavily on the writer and his or her approach to the franchise. You need a writer who prioritizes the story, characters, and plotting over pushing their personal agenda in the comic.

No such writer currently exist since 2001.

Sure, they used to be great, and they can be great again. I believe that. I have to ;_;

I'm still doing that! Like I said at one point or another I haven't read *everything* X-related, like I gave up with Dazzler or Mantlo's Alpha Flight.

That really hasn't been a problem for X-Men comics desu

So were you a big fan of Claremont's 2001 return with X-Treme X-Men and his Uncanny X-Men?

What was your opinion on Claremont's X-Men Forever?

I liked Tantra.

Depends on how belted they were.

The Claremont period was great,Morrison age was meh,Whedon age was good but began the bad habit of character assassinating older X characters,Gillen was passable but ruined Beast,Aaron was Great,Bendis shat on beast,Wolvie,Ice man,Jean and Kitty but his cyclops was great.Hopeless is driving the franchise into its darkest phase so far

I loved the concepts Morrison introduced to the franchise like the second mutations or the normies who wanted to be mutants.

1) That's wrong you idiot
2) You can practically say the same for Wolverine, Cyclops and Xavier

We are the xmen ever good?

Morrison wrote one of my favorite interpretations of Beast. Morrison got Beast. Not very many writers do. Kieron Gillen didn't ruin Beast. Gillen is a huge fan of Beast and Abigail Brand. S.W.O.R.D. was great and Gillen has a legitimate affinity for Beast.

I chatted with him and artist Steven Sanders on a message board several times when Gillen was writing S.W.O.R.D., Uncanny X-men, and Generation Hope.

Comix Zone - 3RR?X-DJ0HJ-WVLZ?

? = 4

LOL, that's the only thing I liked, too.

Jesus wept at Tantra's power set.

>implying anyone cares about any Leaguers besides Superman and Batman

>inplying anyone cares about the X-Men but Wolverine and le funny Deadpool
Also, horseshit. If we're talking JLA levels of popularity, it's the Avengers that are the most famous team.

>I'm as gay as the next mutant
lmao

the popularity of the avengers is a very recent thing. they used to be incredibly lame, the Justice League with C list characters.

Marvel kept the Avengers movie rights because no one wanted to buy them.

New Xmen waa good.
The animated series was good.
The movie was okay.

There are good runs before and after new xmen, but bew xmen was my first real foray onto the comics (only seen the animated series before) so my opinion is biased.

they should have made young Beast gay instead of young Bobby at least it wouldn't have been completely out of left field

When JL, or anybody really reaches the sales X-men had in the 90's, call me.

Seeing as my man Longshot is in the page you've posted, I assume this is a retorical question.

>Hypercortisone D. This is the new drug [...]
yep that's Morrison alright

and then I read the whole page, yeah Morrison

they weren't just good they were the best.

the entire nerd-o-sphere rotated around the X-Men

>they used to be incredibly lame, the Justice League with C list characters
but they're incredibly lame now you casual shitter
they were unpopular I give you that

Comic Avengers are lame. MCU Avengers are very popular.

cape movies are shallow piss

>Marvel kept the Avengers movie rights because no one wanted to buy them.


And noone had the balls to pull it off.

The original Claremont era was pretty good.

Doom Patrol was only ever good because of Morrison. Granted, it was pretty fucking good while his tenure lasted. Only if there was a way to return to those glory days....

>the normies who wanted to be mutants.

The U-men are extremely underrated but you could never do them today because MUH TRANSPHOBIA

Claremont was perfect until X-Factor was forced (Busiek is the only one nostalgic for O5 X-men) then it became merely great to good.

Beast was ruined back in 2009 back in Dark Reign.

Aaron's WATX was garbage. had all the ingredients to be great but blew it.

Bendis tried to pass off Rightclops' crusade as some kind midlife crisis/guilt over killing Chuck while possessed by the Phoenix.

X-men is good when the industry is good and shit when it is shit. we are in a shit period in the industry

>they're unrecognizable NOW!

You mean like they're all new all different?

this rogue design was fucking 10/10

Yes, yes they were.

youtube.com/watch?v=VgF_VMQ19aA

As far as modern X-men go, Morrison, Whedon, Gillen, Fraction and Carey are bretty gud.

Nothing will ever beat Claremont UXM and New Mutants though.

Well, despite X-Factor being forced I think that Claremont and Simonson dealt pretty well with it.

There are also pretty good stuff post X-Factor introduction:
>Wounded Wolf
>Mutant Massacre
>Fall of the Mutants (Apocalypse in particular)
>Genosha
>Inferno (I really like infern and Maddie deserved way better. Great villain though)
>The second Brood Arc
>Reavers
>X-Tinction Agenda
>Endgame
>Muir Island and Shadow King

And the boys end up saving the world while being drunk as fuck .

It may not be perfect but it was still better than anything else and a thousand times better than the current stuff

It was not a hit originally, Stan & Jack were stretched too thin and neither really brought their "A game" to the franchise. Despite the revisionist history, the original concept was lazy as all hell. Stan simply wanted a catch-all premise (mutation) in order to create a steady stream of heroes without having to work too hard on individual origins.

It immediately found itself near the bottom of comic sales, thankfully Roy Thomas and Neal Adams took over and rejuvenated the struggling series. Too bad it was already too late to save it from cancellation. These last few issues were far better than what had come before and could have led to interesting stories.

Len Wein & Dave Cockrum reintroduced the title in the 70's but it was Claremont & Cockrum (later Byrne) that defined the series and are responsible for 90% of what defines the series.

During this period the stories were free wheeling, it touched on any number of themes. They fought evil mutants, evil humans, aliens, vampires, dinosaurs, robots. They travelled all over the world, into outer space and into fantasy realms.

Unfortunately, like most things at Marvel, it got too popular to stay autonomous. As early as the 80's Marvel editors were pushing for crossovers & spin offs. Unlike modern Marvel every spin off was solid gold: New Mutants, Alpha Flight, Excalibur...later X-Factor and Wolverine.

It was the 90's that killed the X-Men. Ironically, it was this period where the franchise reached its zenith popularity-wise...all while the quality of the series was falling off a cliff. Claremont had been the guiding voice of the series since the 70's but the rise of "superstar" artists like Jim Lee, Marc Silvestri and Rob Liefeld saw a power shift from writer to artist. Claremont found himself demoted to co-plotter with rookie artists and shackled with now annual crossovers. He left and shortly after so did the superstars. The title has been languishing ever since...telling only one story over and over again.

Lodbell tanked the franchise long before Bendis got his hands on it.

>We're the xmen ever good?
How can you look at that picture and still need to ask that question?

I WILL MEET YOU BY THE MONORAIL!

>Runaways, whedon, good

'no'

This is a good summary. Though it leaves out some of the fresh ideas that have been introduced since like Morrison's run and... okay, that's it.

The X-Men's decline accelerated into an outright crash when Marvel decided to actively shit on them and promote the Inhumans, though.

Yea, X-men is like series that's been rebooted like 7 times, using the previous one as a background info. Evey run since the 90's has had a hard time building upon the previous and done more retconning. I try very hard to look at them on their own and not as "x-men" just as what the stories do.

It's really unfortunate the writers seem to have the right answers but the editors push their fixes. No More Mutants was a major set back for x-men. That was the definitive death of X-men as the poster children for marvel. X-men was even bigger than spider-man in the 90's.

Not a coincidence, in 2005 is when marvel got a loan from merrill lynch to make their own movies and fox passed on working with them moving forward on the x-men franchise.

Yeah really good call on 'No More Mutants' being the definitive nail in the coffin. I do wonder if it's just a timing coincidence with the forthcoming Marvel Studios because the story would have been put in place before they knew they could get into movies. I'd hope it's a coincidence but I really do know better with how fast Marvel has been to shit on and bury the franchise that carried them for a decade at the idea of movie money.

I doubt it's a coincidence, didn't they have the Mutant X lawsuit wrap up around that time?

Probably. Jesus Marvel was such a mess from the 90s pretty much up until Iron Man came out. If they didn't have Marvel Knights and the Ultimate U to lean on so heavily they might never have made it that far.

Everything after Claremont was either:
1. Everything changes here! No more status quo!
2. Remember how great the status quo was? It's back!

Unfortunately, both sides are telling half truths because the end result of either direction was the same "mutants are hated" story.

Claremont kept the existence of mutants relegated to near myth amongst the marvel populace for much of his run. It allowed the characters to explore different stories like the vampire, outer space, fantasy, etc. directions that I mentioned in my earlier post. Their ongoing struggle with humanity found itself on he back burner more often than not.

Some mutants feared humanity, others were ambivalent and still others had nothing but positive experiances. Now they only see humanity with fear and hatred...and who can blame them? We've had decades of stories where humanity has only met mutants with genocide. Every story makes Xavier's dream look more and more foolish.

Another thing that killed many fan's interest in the franchise was the halting of forward momentum. What I mean by that is that mutants were designed to be replaced. Kill one and more are always being born and found. The original team was replaced with an entire team of strangers and it was amazing (or "uncanny" if you'll forgive the pun). Later a younger generation of mutants were introduced in New Mutants and the series built them from the ground up. I thought something stunk when they reintroduced the O5 in X-Factor but I knew it was dead when the New Mutants never became the X-Men but rather X-Force. In the last two decades more and more young mutants are brought in only to either die or be forgotten. The X-Men proper will never be replaced entirely, now most fans wouldn't allow it anyway...and the editors are fanboys themselves.

Aside from brief attempts at "new," we've been reading the same story with the same cast ever since Claremont left. Objectively, the creativity died long before the Inhumans.

I feel like that would have been acceptable because Beast

You'd have to make less of an argument about him being in the closet since he's had like one major girlfriend in his history

Why would you expect the X-Men to work differently from any other Big 2 comic title?

Each and everyone of them go through Everything Changes and Nostalgia phases that inevitably lead back to the same rough status quo.

Flash was a hit and so was Martian

John GL well he's the black guy he will stand out no matter what

That's why I have to agree with the whole No More Mutants being the halting point. I'm kind of cautiously optimistic with the new Generation-X series, but they can't introduce very many NEW characters, so we're getting Quentin Quire AGAIN. I did enjoy the New Mutants run from a fear years back with the original team operation as an X-Men squad, but at this point if they replace the X-Men proper with any pre-existing characters, people will just consider it X-Force or X-Factor or whatever and not the X-Men. Like how Uncanny X-men right now is pretty much just Uncanny X-Force

No. They are not enough panels showing Rogue or Psylock ass,

Have Abigail Brand be Trans and there is your solution

You sound uncertain. Are you not sure if you are the X-men Ever Good?

Pheonix Saga is over rated IMO. Brood Saga is where the gold is. But I love X-men space stories

Austin was...passable for the most part.

But they would have had to bring Simon back and make him bisexual cause everyone should love him

Austen was terrible and gave us the madness that is Nightcrawler's devil daddy

Whedon did pretty great with the X-men. I hate all you Sup Forums fags coming into X-men threads and saying everything he does is shit.

You are joking right? THE FUCKING DRACO ARC

That was the worst

The phoenix saga has a major cop-out ending. Jean dying is a weak ending. She was a hero, became a villain, and just got discarded because it got messy. I love the idea of her being imprisoned but then.

>Shooter, during a conversation with Claremont, suggested a scenario where Jean would be permanently imprisoned as a compromise, and Claremont responded that such a scenario was unfeasible since in his opinion, the X-Men would want to continually try to rescue Jean from imprisonment.

That could have been interesting. Try to do stories where the X-men at first try to accept Jean's imprisonment. Maybe they have no idea where she is, and for a while they are trying to find her, but it's a subplot till they break her out.

Yea, then you have to deal with the x-men breaking intergalactic law and becoming renegades. That's WAY more interesting than "well she is dead now"

yeah, Claremont hated being forced to bring Cyclops back. He also thought it was a mistake to resurrect Jean Grey. He wanted to cast to rotate.

It's how the best times of Avengers books worked too. constant rotating casts keep it interesting, just need a couple core members to be teachers or fighters and let the new characters have development

Whedon did a good work that stands on its own, but you have to understand that he was on two of the hottest books in Marvel at the time and he killed both of them with delays

Astonishing and Runaways never recovered

fair, but reading them now in trade they stand out as one of the better runs.

my bad. I had him confused for Carey.

Well now going crazy and dying tragically is all Jean Grey is ever fucking remembered for, because it's all she ever does. Well, that and cheating with a drunk hairy midget. When's the last time Jean did something noteable that wasn't Phoenix-related? GAYing Bobby aside

I'd take either jailing her forever or permanent death, anytime she shows up now the reader can just count the pages til she snaps.

>Well, that and cheating with a drunk hairy midget.

They never actually did.

Though I agree with everything else you say. The character is so one note its awfull pretentious. I HATE that about characters. Gwen Stacy is like that. They use her to kill her, which is stupid. We're too brand awareness and selling based on familiarity. No one wants new stuff cause it scares them, they want same old same old......

That's what made Claremont and many of the writers from the 70's and 80's so good. They wanted to keep the foundation in place while making necessary (albeit small) changes to keep things fresh. They were always trying to find new stories while staying true to the roots. Now they either recycle or they throw everything established into the toilet and replace with their new pet character.

Claremont with X-Men, Stern with Spider-Man (later Avengers), Michelinie/Layton/O'Neil with Iron Man, Englehart/Gruenwald on Cap, among others. The Avengers were constantly changing almost from the start, as were The Defenders.

It's frankly astounding that nearly every writer to come after Claremont gleefully rips off every theme, character, nuance, etc. EXCEPT the one thing he fought so hard for...change.

It doesn't help that the past several years, Marvel hasn't let a single writer (who's name isnt Bendis) stay on a book for more than 20 or so issues, then starting the book with a new team and a new #1

I'm telling you, if the cost doesn't end up driving me out of the hobby, that's going to. I am getting so burned out on hype and changes that are non-entities I'm finding it really hard to give a shit about any of it anymore.

I'm on an extended break from modern Marvel at the moment...still buy trades/hardcovers for silver/golden age stuff though.

As you mentioned; There are a number of factors that have squeezed the life out of comics...Marvel in particular:
>1. Indies have become a viable alternative for writers, which means they save their juiciest ideas for their post-big 2 work.
>2. Constant reshuffling of talent in order to restart comics with new "collector's item" 1's. Now a writer never gets to spend more than a year crafting a story.
>3. Movie synergy, now the writer has no choice but to follow a movie plot he had no input in.
>4. Status Quo is now maintained by fanboy editors and stubborn fans will terrorize then if they even perceive hints of a change.
>5. Pandering to markets that will NEVER read your books.
>6. Crossovers: Hope you didn't have a big story arc planned because next month we're doing stories with giant monsters...good luck!

This last one is an educated guess...
>7. It appears writers no longer have a choice in what titles they are allowed to write, what characters they are allowed to use or even which artists they get to work with.

Haha what? He was the main guy during the X-Men's biggest period of popularity. Editorial bullshit mainly played a large role seeing as that drove him off the book after Operation: Zero Tolerance and then drove off his replacements (Joe Kelley and Steve Seagle) too leading to the shitty Alan Davis period where he was Claremont was ghost writing at least part of it.

...

Lobdell wasn't the nadir of the X-franchise like the earlier user wrote but...saying he was the main guy during the height of their popularity is misleading.

Claremont built the X-Men up over his 15+ uninterrupted tenure to the storied franchise they found themselves at in the early 90's. They were so popular that a cartoon was proposed and, unfortunately for Claremont, it first aired almost a year after he left the title. The cartoon strapped a proverbial rocket to the X-Men's notoriety.

Lobdell was just incredibly fucking lucky. Claremont had left in huff feeling replaced by hotshot green artists. Those artists (now mediocre writers) then jumped ship to Image. Lobdell apparently got the job because he walked by the editor's office at the right time.

If the franchise was a house then Claremont built and furnished it. The cartoon gentrified the neighborhood and Lobdell was just the first tenant. ...I guess the Image artists were shady house-flippers or something.

All he had to do was coast on the fumes and...that's basically all he did. Crossover after crossover, that was all he knew. X-Cutioner's Song, Fatal Attractions, Phalanx Covenant, AoA, Onslaught and Zero Tolerance. The fact that these banal tedious crossovers still managed to sell set the tone for the next decade+ of awful crossovers that we still find ourselves in.

How sad that it's still better than all modern X-men.

What's eith Morrison and crossdressers, trans, etc?

Caught the gay.

Just rereading Ellis' X-Men run. Wow. First 20 pages are basically about how much sex they have. At least he gets the core idea right

>only good character is Martian Manhunter
>doesn't even have Swamp-Thing

yeah fuck JL

It's funny how Morrison was the writer of both the freaks on DC and Marvel.

at one point they were second only to batman

I have basically no recollection of Ellis on X-Men, except that the art on that one mini was sort of odd and he fucked with Forge in an unnecessary way