Over void/ The source

So is the over void/ monitor the source or are they two separate things?

And why is the over void here depicted as a man holding a book?

I don't know man. I think Grant purposefully writes his stories so on the surface they seem like they make sense but they just don't.

Yes, currently they are.

That's destiny of the endless

The multiversity is not even a thing now. It hurts badly.

It is though? A bunch of the characters were just in a Superman arc.

And Lord Havoc will be the villain of the first JLA arc. The user above you is stupid.

It sucked. 53 earths to explore and the first thing Tomasi does is to combine all the supermen into a 3 issues mediocre event.

No it's not its clearly labeled "over void" right above his head. I don't blame you for thinking that though, that was my fist thought as well.

It did suck, but that means it's still a thing.

Overvoid is beyond the source. The source wall is the fourth wall. The thing beyond the fourth wall is the reader. That's why it's a guy holding a book. That's you, reading the comic.

And here's the Presence having a chat about the printing process at the end of Lucifer

Grant's annotations of the multiversal map in the deluxe edition literally spell out "destiny at the top"

His definitions of desire and greed are all kinds of fucked up. Am I greedy if I want a sandwich and there's one in the kitchen? or do I simply DESIRE a sandwich?

This is why using Oxford commas is important.

"Beyond lies only Monitor-mind, The Source and the Unknowable."

As the text is written now, it makes it seem like The Source and the Unknowable are just different names for Monitor-mind. But because Oxford commas aren't a universally excepted grammatical convention, we can't be sure this was the intention.

"Beyond lies only Monitor-mind, The Source, and the Unknowable."

As you can see, the presence of an Oxford comma makes it unambiguous that these are meant to be three distinct entities. If Oxford commas were used by everyone, then we would be able to know with certainty that the absence of an Oxford comma in this sentence means that Monitor-mind is both The Source and the Unknowable.

If that's true it doesn't make any sense. Why would he be at the top?

Cause all of reality exists on Destiny's book. Kind of like a comic book.

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He's the person who holds the author's script

Bullshit. I have the deluxe edition. Doesn't say that anywhere.

see Did you miss it or was it only in the digital version?

Ok I remember this now. Sorry I have a hard time making sense of grants scribbles.

Isn't the author the over monitor?

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I like to think that the Overvoid is the comic while the Source is the writer, the Presence being the Source's manifestation within the universe.

I have a question. In final crisis the "war" that supposedly happened between the new gods. Did we every see that or was that all off panel?

Off panel. Countdown to FC was supposed to explain what happened to the New Gods before they fell to Earth, but that was so thoroughly confused and shitty that everyone made a collective decision to never mention it again.

be glad he bothered to use the concept at all than complaining.

Thanks. That was really bugging me.

Maybe this is on purpose? Like the whole For You thing?

Really? I always assumed that it was Destiny of the Endless...

Post New Super Man S please and see if we can find a connection

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So...

>Sky (Qian) - Dream
>Lake (Dui) - Underworld
>Fire (Li) - Apokolips
>Thunder (Zhen) - Hell
>Wind (Xun) - Heaven
>Water (Kan) - New Genesis
>Mountain (Gen) - Skyland
>Earth (Kun) - Nightmare

?

This may also help

>Apokolips is full of pheasants and New Genesis are all pigs
Welp, there's a mental image for you

So in order of Trigram Figure, Translation, Image in Nature, Direction, Family Relationship, Body Part, Attribute, Stage/ State, and Animal
>Dream : , the Creative and Force, heaven and sky, northwest, father, head, strong, creative, horse
>Underworld: , the Joyous and Open, lake and marsh, west, third daughter, mouth, pleasure, tranquil (complete devotion), sheep and goat
>Apokolips: , the Clinging and Radiance, fire, south, second daughter, eye, light-giving and dependence, clinging and clarity and adaptable, pheasant
>Hell: , the Arousing and Shake, thunder, east, first son, foot, inciting movement, initiative, dragon
>Heaven: , the Gentle and Ground, wind, southeast, first daughter, thigh, penetrating, gentle entrance, fowl
>New Genesis: , the Abysmal and Gorge, water, north, second son, ear, dangerous, in-motion, pig
>Skyland: , Keeping Still and Bound, mountain, northeast, third son, hand, resting and stand-still, completion, wolf and dog
>Nightmare: , the Receptive and Field, earth, southwest, mother (consort), belly, devoted and yielding, receptive, cow

The S path goes:
> Dream > Underworld > Apokolips > Hell > Heaven > New Genesis > Skyland > Nightmare
Or reverse order if you want to start from the bottom

there's no point in making sense of it, it's all pretty vague/meaningless

The author and the reader are Monitor-Mind. DC is a living fiction that exist floating in our collective Monitor-Mind.

I'm pretty sure they're all the same thing. They're us. They're our collective thoughts.

The Presence sort of got bumped lower in the Multiversity cosmology. He (or She if we're talking Mike Carey's Lucifer) used to be the end all be all but now he's equated with a lot of things on the Godsphere.

It's pretty clear to me user. What's confusing you?

Bump for the multiversity.

>The author and the reader are Monitor-Mind. DC is a living fiction that exist floating in our collective Monitor-Mind.
Quite explicitly no. The Monitor is the blank space between the panels of the comic book. The actual story of the comic is something alien to it.

I think that the presence is supposed to be omnipotent in-story, while the overmonitor, the gentry and other meta beings can manipulate not just the multiverse or the omniverse, but the story itself

>Monitor is the blank space between the panels

Yes. The space is the space between ideas in your head. You aren't always thinking about DC. There's spaces.

>The actual story of the comic is something alien to it.

Yes, it's a self-created system just as (as Morrison describes it in Supergods) DC comics are "self created".

Could someone give me a rough idea of the order of the most powerful beings in DC?

From what I can gather it goes something like this
Over Void>The Presence>The Endless>Lucifer>The (52?) Monitor(s)>I'm confused as to how many Monitors there actually are. I think the Over Void sent out 1 to investigate the DC multiverse and that 1 then split into 52 with one of those splitting again into the Monitor and the Anti-Monitor

Does that sound about right?

It's probably Empty Hand >= Overmonitor/source>the gentry=tought robot= mandrakk= Nix Uotan>The Presence=the multiversal monitors>Lucifer and Mike>The endless>True Darkseid>Everyone else

Lucifer is ridiculously overpowered. He is one of the 3-4 beings that Death has no claim over, and will be around when the end of the world happens. I would place him tentatively above most of the Endless, just not Destiny. His older brother Michael would be stronger than him, but they are both really, really close to the Presence (with Michael being the only angel with the power to create)

I'm not sure if one could say that destiny is more powerful than lucifer. Sure, he can predict everything Lucy is going to do, and he can't be destroyed by anyone as long as there is a tomorrow for all creation, but he's a really passive deity, a side effect of the presence's power.

Over-Void=Monitor-Mind=The Source (Maybe the same thing?)>Monitor Sphere level (Empty and Filled Hand, Monitors, Mandrakk, Nix Uotan, Superman Thought Robot)>High level Godsphere (Endless, True Highfather and True Darksied, The Presence)> Low level Godsphere (Angels, non-skyfather pagan deities)>Bleedspace gods (The manifestations of Godsphere beings of variable powers, may be as strong as they are on the Godsphere may be weaker)>Bleedspace inhabitants (Superman and other such beings)

>Will be around when the world ends

Didn't he fly into the Overvoid at the end though? So wouldn't he....not be around?

Also that doesn't really jive with Final Crisis. The last ones alive at the end of the world were Mandrakk and Superman. But hey, time was screwy.

>Michael

Michael sort of cheats though because he's a conduit for the Presence. Normally he's more powerful because dad is normally helping him. Just on his own I think he's about equal with Lucifer.

Final crisis was more meta. From the highest perspective, superman and mandrakk are the first and the last one. In story, the presence is the first being in existance.

Yeah, at the end of his solo series (ignoring the abortion that is the 2015 currently running series), he flew off into the void as a final rejection to an offer given to him by the Presence. I think I remember the "final being left alive" thing was from an issue of the Sandman, and it has been a while since I read that.
The continuity between the Vertigo world and mainline DC is really screwy, and it seems like no one other than Carey was really interested in making even the Vertigo universe mesh together

As for Michael, Lucifer was able to kill him in the solo series, but mostly because Lucifer was stoned out of his mind on Fenris blood, and Michael had no connection to the Presence because the Presence had abandoned creation

>Like the idea
>but has no idea the ramifications or meaning of having the I-Ching being tied into the Superman mythos

So can any user care to explain the significance of of the specific path in the I-Ching that Superman takes and the all-new Superman takes?

I like how the ears were revealed to be Superman's greatest attribute which to me sounds like he's always listening but the chart user posted has in-motion/pig/dangerous/water as the ears' attributes. I understand the in-motion part as even Grant Morrison in his book writes how Superman is always in motion, from his first comic appearance (destroying a car) to Grant's own first issue Action Comics run (Superman being chased by the police). Don't know how the others fit in...please help

> Ears because of super-hearing
> He's literally compassionate god/buddha who save people in need

I got that but what about the whole pig/dangerous/water associated with the ears?

A good rule of thumb
Meta character > Abstract concept > Deitys and Gods > cosmic force > reality warper > superhero