/trek/

So how did they get rid of the capitalist mode of production on Trek? Shouldn't the Federation declare war on any societies based on the exploitation of workers?

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youtube.com/watch?v=Wx5I7uEEEYo
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if you want real discussion about star trek go to the star trek thread on /tg/

>When is it stated that the Federation is communist?
>also the prime directive.

Star Trek is a TV show, I want to discuss it as such.
Go back and watch it again, they're clearly a society founded on enlightened principles of socialism. As for the Prime directive, that's some Vulcan bullshit, a product of a society founded on repression and unable to deal with the fact that not every species disdains emotion.

Except they have
>money
>personal property
>the ability to buy and OWN land
>trade with other government bodies
need I go on

while it is inconsistent throughout the shows generally the federation does not deal in currency

>yfw Communism is less believable than the warp drive

>money
They literally don't
>>the ability to buy and OWN land
>What was the NEP
>>trade with other government bodies
How are they supposed to not do this?
Anyway my point has been since the OP that they should do things that they dont, LIKE wage a galactic proletarian struggle against the forces of capital. The Dominion War should have just been a prelude to the glorious armies of the Federation conquering the reactionary Klingons and Romulans and imposing regulations on the Ferengi economy.

socialism is when the workers control the mean of production. i've never gotten the feeling that's the case in star trek

You mean this stuff
memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Federation_credit

they talk about the show there too in more detail than they do here. just saying to check it out

You're thinking of communism
There's no wage labor in the Fexeration, which means that they've overcome the capitalist mode of production
So they're either socialists, fascists, or communists

Don't tell me what to do

Then why was this women selling gamma quadrant artifacts to make latinum to live on earth. Did she want extra rations for the land she would be assigned or was she going to bribe a goverment official to get what she wants, just like real communism

check it out an autist like you will fit in just fine

Because the writers didn't read enough Marx

why is this man growing grapes for wine, couldn't this land be used more effectivly for living quaters on an overpopulated planet? Or did he grow what he wanted because it's his land?

COMMUNISM KILLS!

>stated all the time that the Federation has no currency
>"What about this shotty Vash bit?"
Bye

Then how is star trek an example of communism if the people that made didn't even understand the system they were showing?

Do you not know the difference between socialism and communism?
Socialism*

Then why were these guys robbing the enterprise, why would they rob them of gas if everything they need would be provided for?

communism doesn't make sense. period. full stop.

Pretty sure you don't even know the difference between the Federation and non-Federation entities, please stop replying to me

Socialism allows one man to own a means of production?

But these are Arkarians they live in the federation, why are they robbing people? Is there something they can buy that the federation can't provide?

You're really hung up on the concept of ownership for reasons I don't understand
There are criminals everywhere, user, they can't just replicate a Galaxy class starship without specialized equipment only available in orbit around worlds populated primarily by trained Starfleet personnel

so who owns the robats and factorys? im guessing it aint everybody

>You're really hung up on the concept of ownership for reasons I don't understand
Because Communism and Socialism are hung up on the concept of ownership
By your logic the USA is socialist nation because they have welfare programs and tax returns

Depends, but it most certainly isn't a capitalist exploiting the labor of his employees in exchange for a wage.
No, my definition of socialism has to do with the elimination of wage labor as a form of economic activity.

>Isn't the federation taking advantage of every single member of their military by no giving them exactly the amount they produce, the only other choice they have to working is to starve.

>No, *MY* definition of socialism has to do with the elimination of wage labor as a form of economic activity.
I'm sure Merriam Webster himself is rising from his grave to change the definition of socialism because some benevolent faggot on Sup Forums declared what it means

I don't understand
Are the only things you've read about socialism written by Stefan Molyneux or Sargon of Akkad?

>I don't understand
yeah that part is obvious if you think socialism or communism is ideal

Star Trek is a work of fiction.

>I don't understand
The world would be a much better place if everyone was willing to say that, never be afraid or embarrassed to say that
>Are the only things you've read about socialism written by Stefan Molyneux or Sargon of Akkad?
I don't know who Molyneux is and sargon is an idiot no matter what he talks about. Just look at the things you are proposing. You are against power that should belong to the people falling into the hands of tyrants yet every single time socialism or communism is tried that's just what it does. I'm not asking you change over night, but at least leave star trek, something that is suppose to be above the petty squabbles over two systems that have nothing to do with a post scarcity enviroment

socialism is workers owning factories, what europe has is democratic socialism, or social democracy

>how did they get rid of the capitalist mode of production on Trek?
The automation of industry made material wealth ubiquitous. Working for 'profit' became obsolete. Working for ethical and honorable reasons took over.

If it's a post scarcity environment then surely there is no wage labor.
Are Europeans as a whole moving toward the abolition of wage labor and the exploitation of the proletariat by the owners of the means of production?

>t. fake retard inversion of what’s actually going to happen
liberals are the smartest yes they are!!

How else would it happen?

Why would Capitalism function when you can just get anything at any time for free?

Not if they produce more than they consume and don't get benefit from it accordingly then its just wage slavery without the money

Does that include living where ever I want? A California beach on Earth perhaps?

Land ownership is never explained. The Picard Estate is probably an historical permanent grant/lease. I imagine that there is no true individual ownership, all property is ultimately owned by the United Earth government and is leased/granted at the discretion of the state.

Anything bigger than a one bedroom apartment is likely subject to an extensive application process where just cause must be thoroughly demonstrated (such as a farming proposal).

Kind of. People seem free to travel to uninhabited planets and live there, unless the Federation specifically asks them not to.

California is filled with other residents and property. But if they weren't there, then yes, you could.

Then how do we decide who gets to live in california right next to the beach, a raffle?

>Why people with hard and important jobs do.
Then that's just the classism of capitalism without the money

no, that's why they are not socialist but the types of socialism that I said

>tfw no government assigned gf
Hey! Get in line fascist, my definition came before yours!

If you want to live there you keep an eye out for open places to live and apply. The person who has the best case for the space would get it.

You don't like it I'm sure there are plenty of beachfront tracts on an off-world colony.

Again, there doesn't seem to be any governing decision. The low population of people and massive areas covered in the show, means small communities can go wherever they please with minimal obstruction or interference.

It only becomes an issue when the areas are part of some intergalactic treaty or war, which is rare.

What is the best case?
Will of applications consist of "I really like seashells!"

>Need to apply at a certain time
That's not fair, I'm an engineer and have to constantly be working, a Botanist get the spot for sitting around and planting flowers and being at the right place? You're taking advantage of my work, I'm not receiving what I'm producing!

But I want to live on earth, there's enough room on earth for some random guy because I want to. I don't want just any beach, I want Venice beach.

If Venice beach isn't already occupied, then sure, go ahead. It doesn't seem to stop anyone else in the show from claiming entire planets under the same premise.

if you are seriously arguing how communism will work please kys

In this case the engineer may provide more value/importance to the state and would have a stronger case, if for example the work-site is located close by.

Not arguing for the merits of what I laid out, but I can't figure out how else it would work except through the total elimination of individual property rights in favor of complete custody of the state and some sort of grant system.

does anyone else get annoyed at Kes' voice? she always sounds like she just ran a marathon and is out of breath

What evidence do you have that individual members of the Federation don't share in the surplus-value produced by its workers?

>So the value of Labor dictates what I get?
>An engineer will always have more than a carptenter
This is just classism without money

alsoReally? You had to call a tripfag from reddit () to argue with me? cmon man.

I think individual property rights still exist. Beverly inherits her grandmother's home on Space Scotland (or whatever it's called).
But this only works because I think the population of people is really low compared to how many planets they can occupy.

However, the government still can completely fuck over a society of people, if it's necessary for the greater good.

I didn't call anyone, you're just retarded. I haven't been ITT for at least half an hour now.

>Just pathetic

I'm not saying it's good, it's just what happens in the show.

Wrong reply meant for

Land really is not a big problem when every other star has 5 M-class planets orbiting it. People get hung up on the 'land' bit because it was a big deal before capitalism entered a phase defined by financial speculation in which one does not need to own land in order to own capital.

communism and socialism doesn't work.
>oh but look at norway
yeah a homogeneous white society with an abundance of oil. it won't last long if they keep importing africans

Holodecks and replicators don't work
>oh but look at the Federation
yeah a heterogeneous multiracial society with an abundance of dilithium, it won't last long if they keep importing Klingons

Why couldn't it work, if:
The automation of industry was in full effect
Every nation agreed to practice some form of socialism/communism (not Soviet shit)
The world was more globalized

>has replicators
>still needs to create a currency
oh i am laughing

DS9 was the only Trek show that had the balls to admit that Rodenberry's “moneyless” utopia made no sense whatsoever. They did two entire episodes with Jake and Nog using the barter system. Trading self sealing stemp bolts for yamak sauce, etc, etc. Nog was right. Jake tries the "we work to better ourselves" line on Nog.

youtube.com/watch?v=Wx5I7uEEEYo

>don't remind me of that episode it was so bad
But he does have a point, Picard tells her to vacate and she just tells him no, declaring it her ancestral home

>>still needs to create a currency
It's completely obvious that that Federation didn't come up with using latinum as a currency

>It's completely obvious that that Federation didn't come up with using latinum as a currency
if they have replicators and can trade goods for gold pressed latinum they can crash the latinum market

>This one exchange between 2 characters, most of which is a monologue with no rebuttal by the other party, proves that I'm right
Why do people think that this line of argument makes sense?

>technological devices are just like a government systems
How retarded can one person be?

Not everything can be replicated
I mean if you watched the show for any amount of time you would realize that
Non-replicability gives some things value in a post-scarcity economy where most simple chemicals and objects can be produced with the press of a button.
So Holodecks make sense?

It happens with the Indians as well, to some extent.

They do in a fictional universe, just like communism and socialism

the only series i haven't finished is voyager. if they trade their replicated goods for gold pressed latinum that would ruin the market

I feel like it's only really a problem on Earth, off-world colonies seem to play by their own rules provided they abide by Federation law.

Honestly, those that feel strongly about personal property or self-determination are probably the ones out founding settlements on newly discovered worlds.

>>This one exchange

Stop lying using green text. I just told you, it was two entire episodes.

>>no rebuttal

That doesn't stop you, marxist user. Show us your rebuttal. Impress us.

OK so why has nobody answered my questions from the OP without ranting about how Communism is evil and I'm evil for not advocating capitalist exploitation?
What market? The one where almost everyone has access to replicator technology?

I don't have to rebut anything. The entire series supports Jake's argument. If you watched it you'd know that. Nog is undermined by the fact that the Federation actually does have plenty of people who work to better themselves and sentient beings as a unit.

gold-pressed latinum. if replicators are so widespread nothing makes sense.

Gold-pressed latinum is a currency, not a market...

>they can replicate simple things
>replication trillions of say apples
>other civilizations with replicators don't need them
>but say they do
>as they provide it and demand goes down immensely
>Latinum is still barely decreases in value
Basic economics

Communism isn't inherently evil, just like doctor using the four humors in the dark ages. They weren't evil, they just didn't know any better

Tell me more about off world colony rules. What are their rules on tripfags?
Are they hated like they are on earth?

the market is dependent on it. just like our market today is dependent on oil

There are many instances where they can tell replicated material from naturally occurring. Replicated latinum, even though chemically the same would not be as valuable as natural latinum.

if they can trade replicated goods for latinum then latinum is worthless

No, anonymity is hated instead.

Many colonies number less than a few thousand per planet. Depending on the culture, tripfags get taken out back, killed, and buried.

Unless replicated goods in general are far less valuable

>imposing regulations on the Ferengi economy
Definitely the most red-pilled thing about Deep Space Nine and the ferengi is just how unbelievably oppressive the ferengi government is. One episode about them has Quark's mother's assets being seized because women aren't allowed to earn money on their own, another has the Ferengi Commerce Authority show up on the station because Quark's workers form a union, another has all of Quark's assets seized because he violates the terms of a contract.

if you can produce an unlimited amount of replicated goods and trade them for latinum then latinum is worthless

>trilithium
>anti matter engines
Do you think Power just comes from people wishing really hard for it?
They trade latinum for rare materials required for machinery and computation(the holodecks and replicators), mainly because latinum has the backing of everyone and because its rare you can trust if won't fluctuate in value

Not him, but you can't practically produce an unlimited amount of replicated goods.

The process takes time and energy, both of which are finite.

>I don't have to rebut anything

You commies are always so lazy.

>The entire series supports Jake's argument. If you watched it you'd know

I watched it. In fifty years of Star Trek, Gene Roddenberry completely failed to explain the economy of his socialist utopia. In fifty years of Star Trek, the Federation never had an election. Not one. Are there political parties? Do the Vulcans run the Logic Party and the Betazeds run the Feelings Party? These are the basic world building things I want to know. We know more about Klingon and Cardassian politics than we know about the politics of Earth. Even the Ferengi are more realistic and fleshed out than the Federation itself.

Roddenberry's Federation is idealistic. Not realistic. It's not even believable. It breaks the suspension of disbelief. It makes for a good show, but lousy politics. Even as a kid, I knew that a moneyless society would never work in the real world. Which is why I laugh at you commies.

replicated goods utilized waste so it is an endless cycle ultimately infinite
what is solar what is nuclear?

what is wind what is tidal?

But this assumes that societies which still use physical currency place value in replicated goods. If they are able to tell the difference between a manufactured vs. replicated product and refuse to trade for the replicated goods then the currency retains value.