Two of those were by Bendis and the other was written by like 4 people.
Chase Parker
Really? People prefer Bendis over Remender? Not saying Bendis is good at events, but really?
David Jones
I think it's probably like 80% damage control and 20% people not understanding how comic sales work. Like for that second group of posters I've seen people arguing that since it's still top 10 that means it's doing ok. I think they don't understand that ranks are not as important as the order numbers.
Jack Howard
>Civil War II #3 - 176,876 I'm still flabbergasted CWII sold this much. None of these people saw how blatantly lazy and superficial this whole premise was.
Secret Empire is a shitty politically influenced heap, but at least it's a somewhat new idea. Nothing about CWII was original or cleverly conceived in the slightest.
Matthew Watson
Bendis and Spencer should never been given this much control. It's nothing but complete shit since Secret Wars. Either bring back Hickman or clean house and hire better writer/editors.
Austin Walker
It has been a better event than Civil War2....
Michael Davis
#3 sold disproportionally high (about 50K more than #2) because they announced a shocking death for #3 (Hulk getting killed by Hawkeye)
Julian Thompson
CW2 is the worst major event from marvel I has ever released in the last 20 years. Someone try and prove me wrong.
Gabriel Cox
Two reasons 1) It'll mean admitting that doubling down on HydraCap was a mistake, which is sure to piss off certain groups of fans
2) It means admitting that annual event comics aren't the money mill they used to be, which is sure to piss off Diamond and shareholders
Jason Nelson
Yeah, but I was curious more about some fans that insist SE is not a flop.
Nathaniel Johnson
That's still very poor compared to Secret Wars. I remember the threads shitposting about how CW2 was a failure because it fell below 100k before the end of the event.
Which makes Secret Empire's sales that much more in comparison.
Jason Collins
SHUT UP DKEK ITS OUR WORLD YOU JUST LIVE IN IT
*posts DC_BTFO12.png*
MAKE MINE MARVEL BABY
Dylan Ortiz
I don't think I can prove you wrong, but as a smaller event, IvX was painfully stupid as well.
Adrian Barnes
The final issue of Civil War II sold 105,658 units.
Secret Empire #2 sold 100, 983 units.
So, by comparison, SE was already selling worse than CWII's last issue by its 2nd issue.
Dylan Allen
Axis was dumb fun with Good Sabretooth and Evil Havok as its only consequences.
Josiah Ramirez
I hypothesize that Pro-SE fans don't want to admit that those who've objected to the HydraCap storyline form a larger part of the market than they do
Austin Peterson
There was the notion that this was supposed to be Marvel's last try at a political/social story. So people who already disliked that thing stayed away even if they didn't feel strongly about HydraCap.
But that is probably true, that fanboys might have hated the twist as much as the MCU normies crying about it.
Christopher Miller
Civil War II was coasting off of MCU hype, much like the rest of Bendis' work as of late...
Since it spun directly out of CW2's epilogue issue, Secret Empire was always going to bear the brunt of CW2's sins, regardless of its own issues...
The fact that Secret Empire's a metaphorical and cohesive mess only furthers the tailspin
Evan Kelly
CW2 literally killed the sales of almost every book in marvel's lineup.
how it did on it's own is irrelevant compared to that.
Justin Morgan
I will bang this drum forever, but SE really just did not need to be a big event. Such a foreseeable mistake.
I listened to a podcast that Spencer did and I get why he might have wanted the size. He wants to play around in the universe and have everyone reacting to it, touching on how different places are all getting along in the status quo he's built. He's being a nerd about his story and I think that's normal from the creator perspective. But someone needed to tell him no.
The Cap ongoings did not sell enough to suggest that this would be a hit and the only plot that doesn't directly involve something from those books and has some kind of interesting hook is Miles dealing with having actual context to that CW2 vision of him killing Cap.
Aiden Gutierrez
The main issue is that we didn't even get a standard Cap run before this twist. Old man Cap was already stupid in the lead up to Secret Wars and then when we think Cap might be coming back for real and that is all in the past we get Hydra cap. It's really bad timing.
Jaxson Kelly
hydra cap is gonna be cap's OMD as a storyline that irrecoverably damaged the character.
>There was the notion that this was supposed to be Marvel's last try at a political/social story.
i still don't know who they're trying to go for with SE.
liberals hate it because "captain america is a nazi" and see it as nazi propaganda
conservatives hate it for being a trump allegory AND "cap is nazi"
Lincoln Cooper
>hydra cap is gonna be cap's OMD as a storyline that irrecoverably damaged the character.
Still unsure how they're gonna salvage Cap for the Legacy roll out.
Xavier Barnes
>i still don't know who they're trying to go for with SE.
I'm pretty sure it's literally just a Zemo redemption arc dressed up in a Cap story. Which of course I'm fine with if it pays off but I'm sure most aren't.
Gabriel Sullivan
I'm guessing there'll be some degree of zapping him back so he gets the memories of his upbringing that is native to 616 and not just the Hydra-Verse backstory. Then a couple of arcs of trying to repent before going back to normal solo stuff.
Logically it should be a thing he can't come back from, but they probably can't fuck around without having a Cap book that long.
Dylan Clark
>Logically it should be a thing he can't come back from
That's been my problem from the beginning -- you can't come back from that other than Redemption Equals Death
Dominic Cooper
i wonder what's going to happen to spencer between the end of SE to his run on ASM assuming he doesn't commit seppuku.
I'm willing to bet he's done with trying to tell serious stories after this.
Leo Williams
I think that ASM rumor was made up. Posts already proven wrong by the Spirits of Vengeance solicit?
John Jones
Piggybacking on this, he either a) dies a hero, thus redemption
b) gets his memories back, helps heroes defeat hydra, but forever will be tarnished due to nuking vegas and killing rick jones, not to mention being sideeyed by every here from thereon after
c) they literally use the dragon balls to make everyone forget he was a nazi and bring everyone he killed directly and indirectly back to life (with no knowledge of them dying or steve being a nazi)
Carter Powell
Not the guy you are responding to, but I remember seeing BleedingCool talk about ASM before those other "rumors" were posted and deemed fake by the Spirits of Vengeance solicit. That said, BC also tried to run that DC was making a new Endless amalgamation and then took credit when the idea was "scrapped," despite Gaiman having no idea what BC was talking about in the first place.
Kayden Jackson
C might be too cheap even for Marvel, but I guess nothing would surprise me at this point
Benjamin Wood
option A would be for the best if they could afford it. but unless legacy is a reboot i doubt it's gonna happen.
Owen Rogers
With the whole thing about Legacy being fun and back to the core of what their characters are, I don't see how else they could do a CA comic
Yeah, I know it's not announced yet, but why else would Sam Wilson would be back as the falcon?
Ethan Jones
Visual medium. Writers are secondary to the art. Just look at sales with popular artists. Writers are rarely a viable sales boost.
Cameron Jackson
Not according to Alonso.
Andrew Hernandez
then he's a fool
Andrew Russell
>Yeah, I know it's not announced yet, but why else would Sam Wilson would be back as the falcon?
I just assumed that was because Steve ruined the entire concept of Captain America.
But man, I can't imagine you wouldn't see a LCS revolt worse than DCYou if Marvel pulled a "by the way this shitty 10 issue event actually doesn't matter at all and you all wasted money" resolution.
Grayson Collins
What if they don't give Cap a redemption? What if Miles actually kills him after Cap wins in the only way that counts?
The statement continues that the "passion" of fans is what keeps the company moving forward and that "Captain America, will always be a cornerstone of the Marvel Universe who will stand up for what is right, and 'Secret Empire' will be the biggest challenge Steve has ever faced."
"What you will see at the end of this journey is that his heart and soul -- his core values, not his muscle or his shield -- are what save the day against Hydra and will further prove that our heroes will always stand against oppression and show that good will always triumph over evil," it concludes.
Anthony Torres
I don't really see them giving Red Skull a defacto win like that.
Oliver Gonzalez
But you see, Marvel has already used this twice!
Spider-Man and OMD
Daredevil and Purple Kids mindwipe the whole earth to make them forget Matt is Daredevil.
Bentley Gomez
>Don't give one of the cornerstone heroes of Marvel redemption.
Not going to happen. Although leaving Cap dead would actually have a payoff for this event.
The idea of the new generation of heroes defeating the old heroes is a interesting idea but the execution is lacking.
The biggest gripe I have with this event is Nick Spencer using Black Widow as a fucking mouth piece. He gave up being subtle about it too. We get it Nick, you hate Trump, get over it you failed congressman.
Overall this entire event destroyed entire legacies of characters. Even with the eventual double cross of the heroes against Stevil it leads to nothing after the event since they're doing a soft reboot with the fucking Generations thing in 2018.
Levi Thomas
I wonder if in 15 years we will find out that Marvel sat Spencer down right after this press release and told him to write scripts for the dream sequences with the other Steve, and then added those extra pages to the event.
Luke King
I expect nothing less from Marvel. Maybe we can get some Pymtron. I want me some Pymtron
Cameron James
>The biggest gripe I have with this event is Nick Spencer using Black Widow as a fucking mouth piece. He gave up being subtle about it too. We get it Nick, you hate Trump, get over it you failed congressman.
Despite sounding like a liberal on twitter, I got the feeling he's still the conservative flunky he was when he worked for the John McCain campaign back in 2004. I mean, his city council run was based on implementing Rudy Giuliani's policies and gentrifying downtown Cincinnati.
He might not like Trump, but that's because it makes it harder for him to run on conservative ideas.
Also, I'm surprised The Mary Sue (yeah I know) have not complained that much about Scarlet Witch being mind controlled/brainwashed again... or Mockingbird being the traitor in Tony's group -- I mean, how dare they damage female chracters!
Luke Green
Local Comic Shops didn't burn shit to the ground when Bendis did Age of Ultron (which retconned itself in the end).
Killing Cap in any shape or way, is not even a viable fucking option.
They can't fucking do it without burning the bridges beyond all repair, especially after the bullshit bait and switch that was Legacy. Fans will fucking refuse to buy the Legacy relaunch, Generation specials, Legacy one-off and Marvel will be even more fucked in the asshole.
Even delaying the resurrection until Legacy one-shot would be a bridge to far.
Hell, Marvel fucking has admitted they are doing the reset given how they have added about three-four more issues to Secret Empire for the sake of giving them the needed room to unfuck Cap.
Blake King
>which is sure to piss off Diamond good let the market do what the Department of Justice has never been able to do, kill the Mafia's control over magazine distribution
t. worked in magazine distribution
Joshua Robinson
I'm not much of a Marvel reader but I'll admit, the idea of an evil Cap and Hydra taking over the world sounds kinda cool to me. I bet it's badly written though.
Charles Wilson
I feel like the expansion into an event has been a bit messy and hasn't quite worked (maybe it'll read better together), but the main HydraCap ongoing was fun.
There's just a lot of fatigue from stupid Marvel shit in general and the marketing around it was stupid too.
Asher Collins
What are you talking about? Cap being a level-headed tactician that throws tantrums and breaks podiums before storming out it totally awesome writing.
Jose Bell
>He might not like Trump, but that's because it makes it harder for him to run on conservative ideas.
that's pretty much most anti-trump conservatives in a nutshell
Mason Wood
what if they kill 616 cap and replace him with ultimate cap?
Adrian Myers
cant tell if sarcasm or not
Elijah Miller
More likely they reveal Ultimate Cap is the one doing the Hydra shit
Hunter Brown
well, wouldnt be the first time alonso/brevoort/spencer lie to us... remember that statement from last year about hydra steve being real steve and no some alternate universe et al bullshit?
Henry Brown
Granted Scarlet Witch's mind control and Mockingbird's betrayal are very blink-and-you'll-miss-em moments...
Nobody had a fucking clue what was going on with Wanda in the FCBD issue until it was explained in #4 and #5 I believe...
Mockingbird fans are still holding out hope that Bobbi was whammied by the same Faustus intercom shit that Hydra-fied the entirety of SHIELD
Regardless, it still feels like bad timing considering the Twitter controversy and the Eisner nomination
We shall see if the knives will come out with #6 and its explanation
Honestly the way this event's been going, I wouldn't be surprised if Mockingbird was revealed to be Hydra all along and yet somehow died in the oncoming Zombie-Hulk assault just to further establish HydraCap as a bad dude
Jackson Cooper
Bendis is still a big name even though I don't believe he would be a big draw for an event anymore. On top of that CW2 was done to capitalize on Captain America: Civil War being out that year.
Another thing is that AXIS wasn't the summer event for that year. That was Original Sin. AXIS came out later in the year.
Thomas Evans
Yeah there seemed to be talk similar to that months ago.
Henry Murphy
Axis wasn't bad
Xavier Baker
I'm pretty sure both liberals and conservatives hate it because of the Trump allegory. Liberals because it's essentially having the political climate of Trump pushed into their escapism when they have to deal with him on a daily basis as was and conservatives because they dislike political commentary of Trump that presents him in a negative light. It wasn't even remotely subtle at that. Either way, they were pushing both sides away on that
