Did the new 52 unfairly get too much hate?

Did the new 52 unfairly get too much hate?

No.

No. It got "too much hate" but it wasn't unfair. The editorial was fucking up and was doing the opposite of what the New 52 was made to do, as it was warding off new readers and making the continuity more confusing.

Yes in the sense that a lot of was just NOT MUH

No in the sense that the editors were pretty domineering and ruined stuff (cf. Earth-2)

No.

fpbp

Yeah I think that it got a lot of unnecessary hate. There was nothing really wrong with it; there were a couple of stumbles, like Jim Gordon as Batman, but ultimately I felt that the quality of content was the same as post-crisis and equivalent to rebirth. Characters like Superboy got new origins and stuff, some of which was really good. Some of it was bad too, but no comic company is perfect, especially with a rerelease as big as New 52. My enjoyment of DC wasn't lessened by New 52, and I actually think it was better than Rebirth is right now.

it was an unnecessary universe destruction to appease assholes who wanted to print their fan fic versions of already classic story lines.

Not really, it was a fucking mess. DC did need a shakeup as those couple years before were really bad, the only time that Marvel books outnumbered DC books for me. Some good came out of it, but pretty much all of the good could've easily been new runs in the pre-52 universe.

I miss Superbro's hard travelling stories for corn and rassling for tacos

There were good runs but there were a bunch of shitty ones that people don't even remember today. It was a mixed bag but also an easy target because of the reboot.
The hate atleast made them aware of some of their mistakes and made DC attempt to fix them.

It was 33 percent great, 33 percent good and 33 percent terrible. It was average by most standards, but it gave us alot of great runs.

nah

DC should be credited for taking some risks with things - but they also made the choice of launching 52 number ones, so some risks make sense. Things like Demon Knight, Frankenstein - Agent of SHADE and Dial H is what I'm thinking of here.

But they had a TON of badly conceived dross.

No.

There were some pretty good runs but

No one knew what was going on and what was canon and wasn't, so everything ended up as a clusterfuck.
Lobdell wrote Teen Titans and RHATO, but in one book, it said previous Titans didn't exist or didn't call themselves Titans, but in the other book it said that the previous Titans DID exist. So there you have higher ups not being on the same page and them having to edit the trade later.

Then you have all the pissed off writers leaving because editors micromanaged.
Robinson was planning a meeting of Earth 2 and the main earth with Didio and Johns. I think an editor wanted an Earth 2 Batman book, while Robinson wanted Batman to be a b-tier hero on that earth. But either way he was just going through a bad time, said fuck it, and took his notes and left.
Higgins wanted to write a crossover between Nightwing and Deathstroke along with a few other things, but editorial told him no, despite him writing both of those books. They took him off Deathstroke after 8 issues and put 90s lackey Liefeld on.
Higgins and the rest of the Batbooks writers just got bombarded with crossovers that nobody wanted. Snyder especially didn't want that Zero Year gimmick month.
Batbooks were forced to keep a darker tone by Marts. Doyle came on and diversified.
Simone especially complained about darker tones in the form of "creative differences" and left Batgirl. Simone was also taken off of Batgirl then put back on after a couple days of fan complaints.
Batwoman wasn't allowed to get married (but was allowed to get engaged??)
Perez and Superman, Static Shock in general. SM/WW., etc

By the time they got their shit together editorial wise around Doyle/Forever Evil, they changed too many characters and their outfits at once (Batgirl, Grayson, Jim, Hal, Supes, WW, Flash, etc), had a bunch of new writers and literally who cares characters with solos, and sales plummeted. Then they panicked and started to market Rebirth a few months into DCYou.

I really wish it'd been a proper maxiseries from Grant or was the origin they used for the Earth One line, being an ongoing hurt it

I should point out that not even Civil War did as much damage as The New 52.

Even to this day DC has yet to fully recover and Rebirth was at best a bandage that hasn't been able to fully fix everything. I doubt that the damage to the continuity of DC will ever fully be undone.

Nope.

Don't forget the handling of Lobo. Having the Main Man's first New 52 appearance handled by Liefeld was a bad way to start. Then it got worst with the whole Nubo fiasco.

Extended Batfam was trash. Especially Tec, Batgirl, and Nightwing.
JSA was ruined
Titans were ruined.
Deathstroke read like a trash 90's gorefest.
'Diversity' books were given shit creative teams. I'm talking Mr. Terrific, Static, etc.. I've waited for solos for ages and they make them complete shit.
Superman gets cucked on panel because... reasons.

I liked Animal Man and Wonder Woman and Morrison's continued Bat-Epic but only Wondy really required the reboot for that to work. New 52 was a mistake.

It wanted to be new amd exciting whilst simultaneously being old and comforting. Shit the bed and achieved neither.

Yes, without a doubt. The only issue was that they didn't go a full reboot from the start and wanted to try and stay a soft reboot, which led to a bunch of confusion for the first year or so where no one was actually sure what was in continuity and what wasn't.

Rebirth has just been mostly mediocre at best and absolute shit at worst, so I'm not even entirely sure why people think it's a fix.

Rebirth is a lot worse than new 52 imo.

>Extended Batfam was trash. Especially Tec, Batgirl, and Nightwing.
So... just a regular day then.

Nightwing was always thrash, but Cass and Stephanie had nice runs.

Nah, they were trash.

nah, old cass batgirl was good

Action Comics was mostly good. Morrison and Pak’s runs - which make up the majority of it - at least were enjoyable. Superman proper was mostly bad.

Well your opinion is garbage.

Objectively speaking, yes.

Could you explain why "objectively" it is?

The New 52 was just not good at all. Every book was littered with a Secret Evil Organization, and they were never the same one! They ALL had their own secret organization! You had books that went so far to be edgy that it came off as really unappealing. Almost all the costumes were black, red and blue. The Teen Titans looked noticeably drab. It never felt like any hero was winning because every book hinted at some bigger threat, or the villains escaping. Fuck, look at how the Culling played out with an irritating villain who was always on top of everything and was going beyond that bad crossover.

It just kept going with no satisfying plot progression and what's worse, it kept teasing you with "Maybe this character you like will return..."

But that's DCYou, not New 52.

As a new reader who got into western comics with the new 52, I'm fond of it even though it's easy to look back and see glaring flaws.

Then when those characters did return it was a monkey's paw.

They were more daring, they were more experimental and just generally had better artists and writers. The most common complaint against it is that "hurr condensed timeline makes no sense" but the trick to cape comics was always to not think too much about what's canon and where it all fits. If a past story is important to the story you're reading, the writer will let you know, anything beyond that is superfluous information. And even then Rebirth didn't fix this, it just made everything more of a clusterfuck.

>Then it got worst with the whole Nubo fiasco.
Have they told us how the fake Lobo came back from the dead after the "real" Lobo killed him yet? Also, WTF was up with the fake Lobo being part of the original Suicide Squad?

Rebeber, the good Lobo is still a fake.

Mm, slight disagreement. Before I get to that

>Every book was littered with a Secret Evil Organization, and they were never the same one!
^that did piss me off

>It never felt like any hero was winning because every book hinted at some bigger threat, or the villains escaping.
^this too

That being said, there was SOME quality in there you can't ignore. All-Star Western, Animal Man/Swamp Thing, Wonder Woman, Aquaman (up until a point), Batman...there was definitely some good stuff in there.

Shame it got covered it under all the mess that was Teen Titans, JSA, the fuckery of the timeline, characters changed for no reason, ect.

>generally had better artists and writers

i mean among other disagreements with this statement there's a pretty big % of people who carried over. and a lot of the ones who didn't were 90s guys who somehow got work in nu52

New 52 had All-Star Western

I like to imagine that the Lobo Waller kept a hold of was the real Lobo and that the "fake" Lobo from the beginning of the New 52 was one of his clones. Nubo is a either a corrupted son or Lobo's bastard son who's whole past is a lie.

there were some great books produced within the line and I'll look back on the era fondly, but I really like what we've got now.

I was actually excited with snyder becoming a big name because I was on the American Vampire train when it first came out.

They brought in a lot of shitters like Humphries and Percy and Orlando as exclusives. And that's talking about writers. Artists Rebirth is mostly fully of boring house style guys while New52 had some really great ones. You can argue Manapul is still there but he's done very little interior work for Rebirth compared to his first year and a half of New52.

>there were a couple of stumbles, like Jim Gordon as Batman
Nah, that was dope, almost all the DCYou stuff was dope

>Characters like Superboy got new origins and stuff, some of which was really good
Superboy was garbage tho

I think the thing that bothers me the most is that none of the good stuff needed a reboot in order to work.

Have they fixed Mr Freeze yet?
Last I remember Nora was just some random woman that he kept frozen and didn't even know Freeze or something like that.

Yes, the MCU was much much worse

Came here to post this.

Snyder retconned it in All-Star Batman. He openly admitted ages ago that the retcon was a terrible idea, and one he regretted almost immediately after doing it.

lobo is immortal anyway, he cant die because hes banned from the afterlife completely.
liefelds lobo was a disgrace, he couldnt fight deathstroke when hes on par with superman for strength.
waller didnt keep lobo locked up, remember he said he was there because he wanted to be, she wouldnt be able to otherwise

There's nothing in rebirth on the level of Action Comics, All Star Western, Batman Inc, Animal Man or even Snyder's Batman (the first 8 issues were actually good).

That's good, still a major sin of the N52 that it even happened, but good to know that has been dealt with.

No argument there.

I think it's a good thing to mix things up once in a while, especially for comics. New 52 was, I think, a valiant attempt that fell short of the mark. It's still worth giving props to the quality that was there, especially considering some writers had to completely scrap or redo plans to fit in the new continuity.

I will never for the life of me understand the decision to tear up the classic JSA. From a comic purist's perspective that's just about as mortal of a sin as you can commit.

Why did they seriously think hiring Liefeld was a good idea?

I agree with the artist, but in writers nah, in fact, loebell RhAtO rebirth is a lot better that new52 and vendetti finally knows how to make bows without having the weight of the other series of lanterns with crossovers.

So? You just sound autistic screaming about reboots and retcons. It's cape comics buddy, soft reboots happen all the time on different characters.

Deathstroke
Mr. Miracle
Superman

Gut reaction, three isn't a lot, there might be more but that's just off the top of my head. Your statement is still objectively wrong, though.

>but good to know that has been dealt with.
Why?

what the Freeze retcon was great, fuck snyder for wimping out

because deathstroke was a liefeld character and lobo was a parody of his marvel characters at the time, at least when the giff updated him from the purple spandex.
i guess they wanted to get back to the characters 'roots' but it clearly didnt work out very well for either character

Quit throwing around accusations of autism and screaming in a relatively normal debate. You just sound desperate.

It's also not unreasonable for a fan of a continuity-driven genre to complain when the continuity is changed, sometimes beyond recognition.

Venditti came in late though, he wasn't at the start of the New52. And he's still terrible, just like Lobdell. At least with New52 you had Lemire, Snyder on Batman and Swamp Thing, Morrison, Giffen, DeMatteis, even Johns on Green Lantern. Now you're stuck with the blandest fucks ever and all you can do is try to look at the glass half full and say "oh, but he's better now..."

Mr. Miracle and Superman are not good.

Liefeld had nothing to do with Slade's creation. Rob was 13 when Slade debuted

Continuity always gets changed. Rewritten origin stories, rewritten first meetings with certain villains, and so on so forth.

It always good to know that stupid things have been dealt with.

Yeah, I should have included some stuff I liked like Demon Knights and Wonder Woman. That is my fault. Still, it felt like a majority of it ran the same themes and futile feelings. Like, it just didn't feel like anything was progressing for a lot of titles, and it felt like nothing the heroes did affected the villains at all.

yes it is,superman is that sometimes has arcs or very good or very meh

You're wrong about that, but even if you weren't that still leaves Deathstroke. So the statement I replied to is still objectively wrong.

I bet you also hate RHATO and Super Sons. Fight me.

But why do you care? From the sounds of it you're not actually reading the comics since you'd actually know if the character was changed back so.. why does it bother you?

It's just shitty melodramatic bullshit

It's jut one title and even then the art sucks ass.

Here's the problem though. It's a reboot that made everything worse. Like how Mr. Freeze lost his sympathetic backstory and was now a creep. It was DC stripping away any semblance of good feelings to put in a "Everything is fucking miserable" world. It's felt like God of War in a way, where the world is so fucked up and civilians are just there to die, and there is no happiness in that world, you wonder why you want to be there.

In his defense I'm reading a lot of DC's comics right now, but had no idea they retconned Freeze until just now because I don't read ASB.

Haha, funnily enough I haven't read either. I've heard nothing but stellar things regarding RHATO. I fucking love Supersons but I haven't read any kind of series for them, wasn't it cancelled or something? All I know is I've loved Damian since the start and I was introduced to Jon via Rebirth Superman, and he's awesome.

Mr. Miracle and Superman are huge stretches and Mr. Miracle is a mini, not an ongoing.
Deathstroke is definitively the best book of rebirth and it's a B+ book while new 52 had several A level titles.

and you have a really bad taste

Oh my fucking GOD! Who the fuck gives a shit about Mr. fucking Freeze? He's a one trick pony and if you strip away his DCAU arc he's got no good damn stories even when you use muhh nora. That issue was terribly trucking written(by as of Rebirth, DC exclusive James Tynion) but trying to reinvent Mr. Freeze is not a bad idea.

Nah, Tomasi is awful.

>Lamire
>new 52
>Good

Yes, it's one title. Glad you can count. One title being as good as New 52 means that the statement "There's nothing in rebirth on the level of Action Comics, All Star Western, Batman Inc, Animal Man or even Snyder's Batman (the first 8 issues were actually good)." is objectively false. Do you need me to explain what "objectively" means?

>It's jut one title and even then the art sucks ass.
Oooh, I see, it wouldn't even matter if I did explain. Your opinion is trash!

I'm trying and failing to think of something from nu52 that's as good as New Super-Man

what am i missing? Animal Man and Swampy were fine. Demon Knights is overrated af.

>you
>meme
>well

People only hate it because this board has a huge marvel bias

nah, it's just irregular,

Damn, you mad as fuck. So if we're in agreement that only 1 title from rebirth is even close to a dozen from New 52 then it's settled.

Ha.

I'll give you the Miracle-mini angle, I didn't think of that. I don't think it's a stretch to say both it and Superman have been great titles though - what makes you think otherwise? And Deathstroke a B+?

New Super-Man is overrated af

If you want to change the goalposts of what started this entire chain of responses, sure thing. I don't mind since we both know you concede the original statement.

>Overrated
>10k sales

>what started this entire chain of responses
See It seems we both agree but you're just being autistic about a statement.

But here's the thing. Nothing about the New 52 had heart. It was just one Mark Millar level spectacle over another. The characters were eager to fuck and then eager to blow each other's brains out.

If you try you hardest you might be able to follow the arrows back to

>There's nothing in rebirth on the level of Action Comics, All Star Western, Batman Inc, Animal Man or even Snyder's Batman (the first 8 issues were actually good).

Which was the statement I've been arguing against, and which I've already quoted in this conversation.

Do you actually know how to read?

>Your statement is still objectively wrong
t. Casual who bought into the wikipediafag negativity surrounding the new 52

New 52 had like 15 good titles, and the 5 I posted were very good or great, and I completely forgot about Wonder Woman, which while divisive is easily the strongest run from the New 52 imo.
>Aquaman
>Frankenstien
>Demon Knights
>Swamp Thing
>Captain Atom
>Batman and Robin
>Batwoman
>Batwing
>Green Lantern
>Resurrection Man

This is JUST first wave ongoings. I don't think Rebirth can even put up double digits of "readable" titles.

>But here's the thing. Nothing about the Rebirth had heart. It was just one Mark Millar level spectacle over another. The characters were eager to fuck and then eager to blow each other's brains out.
And see, this actually works because rebirth is very interested in continuity clusterfucks and shipping. Characters just fucking each other and then you've also got Johns raping Watchmen.
Action Comics had heart. Animal man had heart. Phantom Stranger had heart. I don't see that in rebirth, all I see is giant spectacles, crossover events and shipping faggotry.

A B+ is great. I just think Priest can overwrite dialogue, though when he hits it's a homerun.
I think Superman kinda got mucked up by Doomsday Clock and it's lead up, I also would have preferred if they had dropped the MUH CONTINUITY bullshit from the start and just made a statement that Daddy Supes is here and he's here to stay rather than giving a weak explanation to it.

Once again

^everything in this post

The reason I'm bringing this up is that for some reason people seem unable to accept that there was some quality in New 52. It is okay to say that Rebirth is better and at the same time acknowledge 52 strengths. The statement is false.

Fair explanation for Priest.

As for Superman, I disagree (in the sense that those didn't stick out as problems for me) but at this point we're getting into personal taste, so your comment is valid.

That's not what STARTED the chain of replies, numbnuts,. And like I said, you're getting your panties in a twist over what some guy said. You're autistically overanalyzing a statement. You're the kind of guy that after comic from a trip with friends and some guys said "oh it was a lot of fun, we took like a million pictures", you'll correct him and say "actually, we took 129 pictures".

>for me
Just because you choose to ignore some problems, doesn't mean said problems seem to exist.